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Follower scar oil tests

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by comnoz, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. NKN

    NKN

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Well let's say it's between a high middle class and a low high class.

    For example, the one's you've tested are at:
    Castrol GTX 20W-50 is € 8,70/lt
    Castrol Classic 20W-50 is € 8,96/lt
    Bel Ray EXP 15W-50 is € 15,70/lt
    BMW Advantec Syn is € 16,50/lt
    Motul 7100 20W-50 MA2 is € 17,00/lt


    Not tested by you
    Motorex KTM Racing 20W-60 € 26,70/lt
     
  2. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008

    OK, It's one of the lower priced performance synthetics here. Roughly the same price as Mobil 1 v-twin when it's not on sale. I just ordered a case of 12 for ~ $9.00 a quart including shipping. [Summit racing]

    I almost ordered up some Motorex for testing. I use their 2 stroke oil in my KTM. Definitely pricey.
    But I have a feeling that it is like most modern engine oils where low friction comes first and load capacity is not a concern.
     
  3. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    If it’s the none motorcycle one, it has very little zinc.

    What difference that makes is anyone guess!

    But it’s unlikely to be better than the 20w60 motorcycle oil that Jim tested.
     
  4. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
  5. Mr. Rick

    Mr. Rick VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    In post #923 on page 47, the graph with "Stage 2" acceptable products, I see one called "Castrol Power 1 4T 20W50 Pwr Rel Mtc Oil".
    Is this maybe the Power RS V-Twin Full Syn stuff, product # 06080 ? If not, do we have another description?

    Thanks, Jim, for an amazing study. This sort of work is the very definition of dedication, and sharing the results as you did, exceptionally generous.


    That Castrol XL looks good, but must be a UK/European thing, eh? Delivered cost from eBay sellers is $131, about 84 GBP, per gallon!
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
    motorson likes this.
  6. NKN

    NKN

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Lucky boy, but you clearly deserve it.

    Here it's almost 25USD/liter + shipping


    Perhaps because of the modern water cooled engines, the heat generated by the load is "under control" by the water so oil makers can concentrate on trying to lower friction?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  7. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    That XL Castrol looks good in terms of bang for the buck for non-hotshoe types here in the West Country. But I wish I could get the Mobil1 V Twin
    for the prices you pay for it!
    It is all Politics...the bane of modern life.
     
  8. NKN

    NKN

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Yep, EU stuff.
     
  9. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    I've tried sharing this info with some other motorcyclists but they just dismissed it without reading thru.
    It seems part of being a man is to be born knowing which oil to use!
    Or to be of the opinion that all oils are exactly the same stuff. I heard that one from a chemist!
    Jim, I like your approach to problems - you start by saying " I don't know the answer to this" and then systematically gather the information needed to get the answer, no ego in the way.

    One question I have is on viscosity- I don't totally trust that multigrade oils hold their viscosity with heat rise as well as monogrades do.
    I have no real hard proof of this, just the observation that the bike went thru far less straight 50 weight in hot weather than it did 20/50 in the same brand. (VR1)
    I'm curious as to whether this would show up as a higher number in load testing.
    I did send some VR1 straight 50, not sure if it ever got there.
    Not that VR1 will be my choice going forward, it will be BelRay of some sort.

    Glen
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
    Hortons Norton likes this.
  10. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    The "Castrol Power 1 4T 20W50 Pwr Rel Mtc Oil" was a sample sent by NKN.
    I have not seen this available in the US.
     
  11. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Generally oils that use VI additives have problems holding their viscosity at high temperatures. The polymers tend to break down.

    This does not seem to be a problem with the better synthetics. Some claim to use no
    vi additives to meet the multi vis spec.

    I don't recall seeing a VR1 in straight 50.
    It would probably hold up better than the multi vis VR1 which did get very thin in the test cup.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  12. WZ507

    WZ507 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Mr Rick,

    It’s curious to me that the oil names present a significant puzzle, as it appears different product names (and compositions?) are offered in different regions of the world. For instance, the oil you raised the question about is in Castrol’s Power 1 4T series, but when I search the Castrol site, they list only one such “Power 1 4T” oil in 20W-50 weight. Yet when you search the whole i-net there are a variety of Power 1 4T oils in 20W-50 weight as well as “Power RS 4T 20W-50” offerings (e.g., Amazon, Google, etc), some are labeled for motorcycle, some for V-Twins, and some with no labeling at all regarding their applicability. Is the "Power RS" the same as the other "Power Release" oils, just abbreviated for a different market/region? The labeling presents a conundrum in it’s own right.


    In the charts Jim published (post #923 on page 47), on the “may cause excessive wear” plot, I see a Castrol Power 1 4T V-Twin 20W-50 oil listed, but the performance is significantly lower than the specific oil you inquired about, so all "Power 1 4T 20W-50" Castrol oils are certainly not the same. Hope you can somehow identify the oil you inquired about. Perhaps Mr NKN can assist.
     
  13. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    Heat from friction does not make much difference in a water cooled engine, but the friction alone does play a considerable part in fuel economy and power output.

    It is just that without pushrods and the high spring pressures that go along with pushrods they do not need to be concerned with the load capacity of the oil.

    Then you add in the heat of an air cooled motor. Heat always reduces the load capacity of the oil.

    Pretty much any oil that stays cool under load is going to have enough load capacity for a modern engine -just because the oil and metal temps are relatively cool.

    So oils built for modern engines are built with low friction and long life as a first concern and load capacity gets shuffled down in priority.

    The big problem is if you read the advertisements for the oils, all they tell you is it's the best stuff on the face of the earth, but not what it is best for...
     
    nortriubuell likes this.
  14. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I have looked at the bottle of Castrol V-twin oil I tested. I do not see any sign of a product number on it anywhere.
     
  15. NKN

    NKN

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    The Castrol oil I've sent to Jim came from a friend who bought, in France, a 5lt can like that:

    [​IMG]

    Here is what Castrol is saying about it:

    https://www.castrol.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/products/cars/classic-oils/classic-engine-oils.html

    https://msdspds.castrol.com/msdspds/msdspds.nsf/CastrolResults?OpenForm&c=United Kingdom (GB)&l=English (GB)&p=Classic XL 20W-50&n=&b=All&t=All&autosearch=No&autoload=No&sitelang=EN&output=Full&spu=Lubricants&unrestrictedmb=No&cols=0
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  16. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Wots difference twixt pds and msds?
     
  17. ntst8

    ntst8 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    MSDS = material safety data sheet. Tells how to safely store, handle, clean up etc. Typically needed before any product can be brought on to an industrial site.
    PDS = product data sheet. A description of what it is and how wonderful it supposedly is.
     
  18. Mr. Rick

    Mr. Rick VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Thanks, NKN, but this just makes it more confusing, the XL product you show being a third Castrol product, not even close to the "Power 1 4T" oils tested separately from this one.
    Who's on first? Daves's not here...
     
    Esmerela likes this.
  19. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I found a bad result in the oil tests.
    It is the result from 15W50 Mobil 1 with BG-MOA
    I got a very high result because the oil heater element had failed.
    The BG-MOA only increased the load capacity to 148 in subsequent tests.
    It is being removed.
     
  20. comnoz

    comnoz VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2008
    I found the bottle of VR1 50 weight
    _____________________________________________________________________
    Valvoline_VR1_SAE_50
    Valvoline VR1 SAE50.jpg
    263 lbs load
    3.82 total heat from friction
    4.18 heat from viscous friction
    1.7 heat from high pressure shear
    Safe for a wet clutch
    Good for a Norton in moderate climates
    with frequent changes