Follower scar oil tests (2018)

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So I spent a little time talking to an oil chemist this morning and decided to try something.

Here is JC blend #8
Follower scar oil tests (2018)

368 lbs load + at friction spike
2.46 heat from high pressure shear
.023 heat from friction


I ran this test until the arbor motor shut down due to overheat.
The follower pressure was over 500 lbs. and follower temp was 430 degrees.
THE FOLLOWER DID NOT SCAR, even though the arbor was blue from heat.

So what is it? It is the same oil that was in the cup last night.
Bel Ray EXP 20W50.[used]
I just dumped out 20% and topped it back up with Royal purple XPR 20W50...
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Regarding the GTX debate, I note Jim’s actual comment:

“Excellent protection for Nortons in cooler climates or for short trips with 1000 mile oil changes”.

Frankly, that sums up a LOT of Norton owners. So actually, GTX is a great choice for a great number of owners.

I won’t be using it personally, I’ll still wait to find the best oil I can as I’m firmly in the “expensive oil is cheap insurance” camp.
Click to expand...


I've always been concerned that my oil does not get very warm when riding. I often test the oil in the tank after a ride and find 150-160 F. My rides are often short, as there is only about 50 miles of road where I live. Frankly, I never intended to own a road bike living where I do, but the fun of getting out the Commando is worth it. That and I like working on them. So the Castrol is probably a really good choice for me. I have to work at it to put on a thousand miles. I could always switch to a higher grade oil should I ever escape from my shut in existence.

I've read that ZDDP is formulated to work at higher temps than those recorded in my oil tank, which has always been a concern. I realize now that the temps at the places I need it are going to be higher due to friction if not combustion. Which brings me some peace of mind, except for that oxidation issue. So this brings me to my question(s). If I use a lower friction oil riding in cool temps and short runs, is it going to be more harmful? What happens if those oils do not generate as much heat? Even at lower temps do I need to be worried about exceeding the oxidation temp at the critical places in my motor if I am running a higher friction oil?

I suppose that oil analysis of my used oil might answer some of these questions. Would it be worthwhile to compile a data base of used oil analysis by real world riders in different climates?
 
Well, I would say that running an oil too cool is just as bad as running it too hot.

Water causes oxidation -just like too much heat does.

So yeah, GTX might be the good choice, it is cheap enough you could change it every few rides if desired....
 
I was told about Amsoil many years ago when it was about the only synthetic you heard about. The guy told me that he noticed a faster idle in his car because of reduced friction and it still idled faster when he mixed it with regular motor oil. So I started mixing Amsoil with racing petroleum oil or GTX etc and I've been happy with it. Now days the synthetics have improved and there are more brand options. I still mix to get all the trick additives without depending entirely on something new and unfamiliar and I try to stay with the heavier weights (and save $). In an aeronautics class I was told that the compounds (macaroni shaped polymer threads or something) that thicken the multi grade oil when it heats up actually displace/reduce the percentage of lubricating compounds in the oil - resulting in lower performing oil. I never verified this but I never forgot it either. Maybe things have changed but it made sense back then and may apply now.
 
Hello All
Just for info samples of these UK/Euro oils will be winging their way to Jim over the next couple of weeks for testing:
  1. Total/elf Moto 4 Race 10w-60 API SN fully synthetic.
  2. Millers Classic Sport High Performance 20w-50 (described as full ZDDP) API SL/CF fully synthetic.
  3. Comma Classic 20w-50 (800 ppm ZDDP), oil requested by sponsor API SE CC Mineral based.
  4. Fuchs Silkolene Comp 4 20w-50, API SL synthetic ester based (semi-synthetic).
  5. Castrol Power 1 4T 20w-50 - API SJ Refers to ZDDP but no level available (probably semi synthetic). <<-differs from V-Twin
  6. Duckhams Q 20w-50 (has 1200 ppm ZDDP) API SJ/C Mineral based classic with good ZDDP.
  7. Fuchs Titan Pro S 10w-60. API SL, SJ & SH fully synthetic.
  8. Rock Oil Synthesis Motorcycle 10w-50. API SN fully synthetic.
If any UK/Europe based owners are interested or would like further details or to contribute please open a conversation with me.
Andy
 
Here are two more tests I did today

___________________________________________________________
Motor_Factory_20W50_Motorcycle_Oil
Follower scar oil tests (2018)
166 lbs load
3.22 heat from high pressure shear
5.4 heat from friction
High heat from friction
OK for wet clutches
_________________________________________________________
Here is a re-test of the Bell Ray EXP. This time with FR3 friction reducer additive
_________________________________________________________
Bell_Ray_EXP_20W50_4T_with_FR3_additive
Follower scar oil tests (2018)

500 lbs -no failure
3.22 heat from high pressure shear
1.42 heat from friction
438 degree follower @ 500 lbs
Without the additive the follower temp was 460 degrees @ 400 lbs

The additive did not turn this into a low friction oil, but it did make enough difference that I was able to run the follower pressure all the way to 500 lbs without fearing a flash fire from the oil and follower temps.
The follower survived with no scar -just a shiny wear mark.
This is some tough stuff...
 
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Jim, this just keeps getting better and better !

I used to use a friction reducer called “Active 8”. They do the show circuits in the U.K. doing a scar test type stunt.

I watched them closely trying to figure out how they were cheating the tests, but I couldn’t see anything. They convinced me enough to use it for years. I stopped when I started using Redline as I concluded “they know best and I don’t want to screw with their formula”. After your test, I’m re-thinking my conclusions for the additive AND the oil!

Anyway, can you let me know if Active 8 is availabe in the US? I’d really like to see how it works when added to the best oil we can find.

If it’s available in US I’m happy to fund the cost. If it’s not, I’m happy to send some to you. Please let me know either way.
 
The FR3 people say:
The anti-wear component of the formula is a patented carbon nano particle that fills in microscopic irregularities on the machined surface to provide a smoother surface for the lubricating film
Click to expand...

Does that mean it’s a suspension of PTFE solids? If so, then do we want it in our engine, even if it does reduce friction?

Removed broken link
 
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Be interesting to see the Millers full synthetic test, it contains ZDDP and has their Nano Tech package as well. Could be an adequate oil at an adequate price.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
The FR3 people say:

Does that mean it’s a suspension of PTFE solids? If so, then do we want it in our engine, even if it does reduce friction?

Removed broken link
Click to expand...

Why, what’s the issue with suspension of PTFE?
 
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PTFE is a solid, much denser than oil. Having it in your oil, in powdered form, may not be ideal for your filters, centrifugal sludge traps, or oil ways.

Maybe there’s no PTFE in this additive. Nobody seems to know what’s in it.
 
The FR3 is not a PTFE additive as far as I can tell.

There are no suspended particles that I can see under a low power microscope -and I had seen that before with PTFE additive.

I have never been much of an additive guy but yesterday when I spoke to a chemist he said there really was not much to worry about concerning compatibility with mixing oils or additives but "the results you get may not be what you expect".

But then he said it sounded like my tester was just what I need to find out if they work or not, so curiosity got the best of me.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Jim, this just keeps getting better and better !

I used to use a friction reducer called “Active 8”. They do the show circuits in the U.K. doing a scar test type stunt.

I watched them closely trying to figure out how they were cheating the tests, but I couldn’t see anything. They convinced me enough to use it for years. I stopped when I started using Redline as I concluded “they know best and I don’t want to screw with their formula”. After your test, I’m re-thinking my conclusions for the additive AND the oil!

Anyway, can you let me know if Active 8 is availabe in the US? I’d really like to see how it works when added to the best oil we can find.

If it’s available in US I’m happy to fund the cost. If it’s not, I’m happy to send some to you. Please let me know either way.
Click to expand...


I don't find any Active 8 available on this side of the pond. Looks like a UK thing only.
 
And I did try mixing 20% of the MPT oil with the Bel Ray.

I got very little reduction in friction and a major drop in load capacity along with a large scar when it failed.
 
Of course I had to build an oil research database with Jim's results: https://www.accessnorton.com/Oil-Tests/NortonOil.php

I will be updating it as Jim sends me more info on different oils. This is a work in progress, but now a permanent fixture here at Access Norton. There is a link from the home page by the Norton Forums.

Let me know if you see any errors. And yes I know its not mobile friendly, but should be ok on an iPad.

Now, be a good person and go Donate to Jim (top of oil page) and then go and sign up as an A/N VIP member.

Cheers
 
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Jerry, I don't think the Mobil 1 Vtwin should read "not recommended for Nortons". Thats not how the original test reads. 178 load and low friction plus known use should be an ok for Nortons and ok for wet clutch. Htown
 
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