Follower scar oil tests (2018)

I guess I was unclear again...sorry. My meaning was simply that since Jim found it to be a satisfactory oil for the Norton AND that I had always liked the name/used it many years ago, the combination (good test/I liked the name) was good reason for me to consider using it again for the first time in decades!

JimC said:

I’m aware. The issue, as I see it, Mike has little or no regard for the results of the oil testing being done. Facts be damned, so to speak. Much like the global warming deniers.

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Yeah, maybe. I see it differently, he is arguing that a steady rider, who doesn’t put the motor under strain, doesn’t hold WOT etc just doesn’t need the same level of ‘insurance’ as those who do.

Personally, I’m in the ‘buy the best insurance’ camp.

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

Fast Eddie said:

Yeah, maybe. I see it differently, he is arguing that a steady rider, who doesn’t put the motor under strain, doesn’t hold WOT etc just doesn’t need the same level of ‘insurance’ as those who do.

Personally, I’m in the ‘buy the best insurance’ camp.

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

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I believe he said he raced a Norton (I assume) using Castrol GTX. Hardly a “steady” rider. When racing, motors are under max strain the majority of the time.

Sorry Eddie, that dog just won’t hunt.

JimC said:

I’m aware. The issue, as I see it, Mike has little or no regard for the results of the oil testing being done. Facts be damned, so to speak. Much like the global warming deniers.

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Maybe you missed it-

"And the highest tested load capacity so far is held by .....Castrol GTX 20W50..."

Glen

worntorn said:

Maybe you missed it-

"And the highest tested load capacity so far is held by .....Castrol GTX 20W50..."

Glen

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You missed the highest friction and the fastest oxidizing part -so far.

But the real tests have just begun.

worntorn said:

Maybe you missed it-

"And the highest tested load capacity so far is held by .....Castrol GTX 20W50..."

Glen

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No, I didn’t miss it. Having the highest friction and being the fastest oxidizing puts Castrol GTX at or near the bottom of those tested.

Commando750 said:

Mr. Rick: How did you choose this Castrol oil as opposed to the other Castrol Motorcycle oil? Just curious.

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It was recommended by my late pal and CHP bike mechanic, Steve Payne. Why he liked it, I cannot say. It's in the bike now, but when I dumped it to install a reed valve, I found it quite dark, despite only a few hundred miles of use.. I chalk this up to the recent overhaul (head rework and overbore) and to the previous use of conventional (non-synthetic) oil, which I now believe is being flushed out of all the nooks and crannies by the synthetic.
It will be changed out soon, sooner than I had anticipated.

The testing machine is now thoroughly tested and all steps are PLC controlled so everything is accurate and repeatable.
Today was the first full day of running the long testing procedure and I like the results I am getting.

The testing is done with a set load at 220 degrees for the first 30 minutes. This stresses the oil under high shear conditions and gives a good indication of the heat produced by friction.

Then the temp is raised to 320 degrees and the load is increased until a scar is produced on the follower. The test stops at this point and data is collected.

The red trace is follower pressure.

The black trace is follower temperature. The difference between the follower temp and the target oil temp is a good indication of heat from friction.

The green trace is friction.

The violet trace is cooling fan cycles. When it is high, the fan is on and it shows oil temp. When it is low then the oil is at the target temperature.

For use in a moderately tuned street performance Norton I would suggest a minimum load capacity of 150 lbs. Low friction is a plus, particularly in warm climates.

I have added one more sensor reading to replace cooling fan duty. This is a calculated number for heat from friction.

Less than 1 would be insignificant heat and friction -very good as long as this does not go along with a load rating that is too low.
~1 to 5 would be a good range in an air cooled motor.
10 would be severe heat.

Here are the first 7 tests done, in no particular order.

__________________________________________________________
Redline_20W60_Motorcycle

119 lbs load
No data for heat from high pressure shear
.017 heat from friction
Very low friction
OK for wet clutch use

__________________________________________________________
Motul_300V_20W60_Le Mans

126 lbs load
No data for heat from high pressure shear
.008 heat from friction
Very low friction
Not OK for wet clutch use

__________________________________________________________
Mobil_1_V-Twin_20W50

178 lbs load
2.48 heat from high pressure shear
.286 heat from friction
Medium/Low friction
Proven to work well in moderately high performance Nortons
OK for wet clutches

__________________________________________________________
MPT_20W60_Motorcycle

216 lbs load
1.47 heat from high pressure shear
.01 heat from friction
Very low friction
OK for non-metallic wet clutches

Low friction and good load capacity make this a good choice for a Norton

__________________________________________________________
Royal_Purple_XPR_20W50

137 lbs load
No data for heat from high pressure shear
.036 heat from friction
Very low friction
Not OK for wet clutches

The load capacity is too low at high temps to recommend it for a Norton.

_________________________________________________________
Amzoil_20W50_Motorcycle

132 lbs load
No data for heat from high pressure shear
1.08 heat from friction
low friction
Medium/low heat from friction
OK for wet clutch

The load capacity at high temp is to low for a Norton

__________________________________________________________
Castrol_GTX_20W50_API-SN

257 lbs load
3.97 heat from high pressure shear
7.87 heat from friction

High heat from friction make this oil best used in a Norton in cool climates.



More coming up soon.

JimC said:

I believe he said he raced a Norton (I assume) using Castrol GTX. Hardly a “steady” rider. When racing, motors are under max strain the majority of the time.

Sorry Eddie, that dog just won’t hunt.

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Jim, no need to appologise to me!

My overriding point here is that you seem to be picking a rather fruitless argument. But it’s a ‘free forum’ so please proceed as desired.

Sir Comnoz,

That Redline load figure is a tad disappointing!

As discussed in our email conversation, can you also please test their 60wt racing oil?

The MPT still look remarkably good. However, ZERO suppliers anywhere in Europe kinda make it a rather inconvenient choice over here.

Fast Eddie said:

Jim, no need to appologise to me!

My overriding point here is that you seem to be picking a rather fruitless argument. But it’s a ‘free forum’ so please proceed as desired.

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Once again you misread. There was no apology offered. I was simply pointing out your mistaken conclusion.

Thank you Sir Comnoz for your incredible work.

I was ready to go for Motul 300V Le Mans (MPT and others not readily availble in Europe) and then you just mentionned that it isn't recommended for wet clutches...aaaargh.
Back to square one.

JimC - I assume from your comments that the only oil you will use from today forward is the oil that comes out on top of Jim's testing. Do I have that right? Are you going to drain/change it all if a different oil ends up on top in a few days/weeks/months?

I raced a 1971 Norton Commando for 5 years using Castrol GTX. I admit my selection of it initially was, as I said, based on the fact that I liked the name among the oils listed in the Norton owners manual. HOWEVER, Though I don't use that oil at present, are you SERIOUSLY telling me that five years of such experience is of no value and does not constitute a valid "test" of oil for that purpose? Frankly, it is the MOST valid test that can be done - actual use under the specific conditions . If the "test" was unsuccessful, the engine would not have survived. It did and routine disassembly/clearance checking did not show any abnormal wear. Yes, the oil was frequently changed, as it should be in that application. Maybe, as Jim suggests, it would not have done so well had we left it in for extended periods but we never did that and would never have thought about doing that.

JimC said:

I’ll use a more scientific approach when it comes to choosing an oil. Like test data, as opposed to an oil's name..

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This is why we love oil threads right! They are emotional

GTX was a great name, a stroke of marketing genious that still works today.

Maybe I will choose Motul_300V_20W60_Le Mans for the name? But it doesn't slip off the tongue like GTX!

More realistically it is going to be the only high performer available in my neck of the woods, just an hour and a half from Le Mans! I may even get to use it there!

Jagbruno said:

Thank you Sir Comnoz for your incredible work.

I was ready to go for Motul 300V Le Mans (MPT and others not readily availble in Europe) and then you just mentionned that it isn't recommended for wet clutches...aaaargh.
Back to square one.

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If you don't use it in the primary cases you risk few problems of migration with a good crank oil seal!

Regarding the GTX debate, I note Jim’s actual comment:

“Excellent protection for Nortons in cooler climates or for short trips with 1000 mile oil changes”.

Frankly, that sums up a LOT of Norton owners. So actually, GTX is a great choice for a great number of owners.

I won’t be using it personally, I’ll still wait to find the best oil I can as I’m firmly in the “expensive oil is cheap insurance” camp.

"This is why we love oil threads right! They are emotional "

Yeah, I guess there is no help for it! I'm on another site (car) where "cam belt change interval" also ends up in twenty-some pages of debate...EVERY TIME. Oil, of course does pretty much the same thing EVERY TIME. Oh well, it has a certain element of fun. One Nortonian commented, when I pointed him to this thread, "You guys have too much spare time on your hands; you should be out riding motorcycles, not arguing about oil." Unsurprisingly, he does not participate on such sites even though he is the president of a Moto club and a past president of the International Norton Owners Association.

SteveA said:

If you don't use it in the primary cases you risk few problems of migration with a good crank oil seal!

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Absolutely true.
Morning fog of the mind (mine). I own a Bonneville and a Daytona as well...so aaaargh for the Trumpets but hurray for the Norton with Motul.

In the past, I often changed oil at 1k miles. Today, oil is expensive and Im a bit less willing to drop so soon. And for those of us in the UK EU zone we have to be able to actually buy whatever oil looks best. Mobil1 V isnt really cost effective for us, we await testing of Fuchs , Halford's etc.

Jagbruno said:

Absolutely true.
Morning fog of the mind (mine). I own a Bonneville and a Daytona as well...so aaaargh for the Trumpets but hurray for the Norton with Motul.

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Maybe you’re like me Jagbruno, I’d really like to standardise and have ONE oil in stock for all my bikes.

That means both dry and wet clutches...