Facts separate from the clutter

City Garage · Mar 12, 2023

With all the banter about new bikes and new dealers and new owners, did I miss where anyone has posted about having a new bike here? I mean, with all the talk etc we don't have any, meaning more than one sighting of a new bike in the wild with a new owner? Who here is actually committed to buying (contract signed or however its done in the UK). Not one forum member has bought a new bike yet? Something isn't making sense to me, so I thought I would put it out to comment.

I've asked this numerous times. Where are even the original 40 bikes at? If they are making bikes, where are they at?

I am really surprised that with all this talk, there is little substance.

Gojuu · Mar 12, 2023

City Garage said:
With all the banter about new bikes and new dealers and new owners, did I miss where anyone has posted about having a new bike here? I mean, with all the talk etc we don't have any, meaning more than one sighting of a new bike in the wild with a new owner? Who here is actually committed to buying (contract signed or however its done in the UK). Not one forum member has bought a new bike yet? Something isn't making sense to me, so I thought I would put it out to comment.

I've asked this numerous times. Where are even the original 40 bikes at? If they are making bikes, where are they at?

I am really surprised that with all this talk, there is little substance.

My own experience was that - after reading the NOC pages - I didn't purchase one.

I do wonder if there are people registering here, and either, given some of the content, simply not commenting, or not progressing.

City Garage · Mar 13, 2023

Until we start seeing some people pop up, Im sticking with what I said. And not surprisingly no one has defended my comments yet.

Even if you took took "all" the forum members here and added it up it wouldn't be much of anything.

Stephen_Spencer · Mar 13, 2023

H

City Garage said:
Until we start seeing some people pop up, Im sticking with what I said. And not surprisingly no one has defended my comments yet.

Even if you took took "all" the forum members here and added it up it wouldn't be much of anything.

Hey CG,

With respect, I’m not sure what you are saying to be honest. I know we’ve debated this in the past and you and others were pretty adamant that Norton Birmingham (TVS) had no intention of ever building any bikes. Is this still what you are saying? I think that’s been pretty soundly put to bed right? Enough journalist, motovolggers and prospective owners have ridden it. Or are you saying that they are building them but nobody will buy them? Or that Norton has failed in their intent for some other reason? Other than reaching production in a timeframe that you and others believe is too slow.

From chatter on other forums it would appear that we are right on the cusp - I’ve seen comment on bike order delivery over the next few weeks - Norton stated ‘early 23’. Do Norton have a pre-delivery problem, who knows. You and I not knowing the detail we are seeking does not necessarily = dubious intent or failure.

The majority of contributers to this forum already own a 961 and have spent time, effort and money to get them running correctly. I don’t think that we represent the group most likely to place an order for a new 961.

Voodooo · Mar 13, 2023

I think TVS is pulling a Carroll Shelby stunt. Do I need to explain?

City Garage · Mar 13, 2023

Stephen_Spencer said:
H

Hey CG,

With respect, I’m not sure what you are saying to be honest. I know we’ve debated this in the past and you and others were pretty adamant that Norton Birmingham (TVS) had no intention of ever building any bikes. Is this still what you are saying? I think that’s been pretty soundly put to bed right? Enough journalist, motovolggers and prospective owners have ridden it. Or are you saying that they are building them but nobody will buy them? Or that Norton has failed in their intent for some other reason? Other than reaching production in a timeframe that you and others believe is too slow.

From chatter on other forums it would appear that we are right on the cusp - I’ve seen comment on bike order delivery over the next few weeks - Norton stated ‘early 23’. Do Norton have a pre-delivery problem, who knows. You and I not knowing the detail we are seeking does not necessarily = dubious intent or failure.

The majority of contributers to this forum already own a 961 and have spent time, effort and money to get them running correctly. I don’t think that we represent the group most likely to place an order for a new 961.

My point is exactly what you are saying..sort of. I think they are building motorcycles. You have all these people riding the test mules, and they had 40 bikes lined up ready to go etc, tons of press that if to a casual observer, they appear to be producing numerous motorcycles a day. Videos showing engines lined up, shop tours where people actually saw motorcycles in production etc.

So are they using some of the 40 as test and show bikes?

I believe my eyes that they are making motorcycles, but like Scott says, Shelby up to the day he died was still playing with the VIN numbers so on small run mfgs I trust them as far as I can throw a motorcycle.

So here is an easier way to say what I am saying. Where are the motorcycles, and if they are truly selling, then where are the new owners at?

City Garage · Mar 13, 2023

Stephen_Spencer said:
The majority of contributers to this forum already own a 961 and have spent time, effort and money to get them running correctly. I don’t think that we represent the group most likely to place an order for a new 961.

And that has been a point here. Who are they going to sell them too?

And don't tell me these people don't go on forums. I know older car owners who can barely use a phone yet they are tearing up Rennlist (Porsche site for those who don't know) and numerous other affluent brands and they are on forums etc.

People want to show off the new shiny thing so why haven't the new shiny Nortons been observed in the wild with "new" owners was also more the question.

And to add to the Shelby issue. I have personally seen 3 #1 of 50 SE and we know the VINs on the line never made any sense so not saying TVS is doing the same but you have to wonder what are the VINs of the new bikes

Voodooo · Mar 13, 2023

How I see TVS.

Stephen_Spencer · Mar 13, 2023

Voodooo said:
How I see TVS.

You indicate your beliefs V2D3/CG, in a significant level of deception, but still do not make clear to what end - a bit of veiled speech going on. So, piecing it together, I guess you believe either that Birminghan Norton has tried (and potentially failed) to get into the production phase and are now stalling delivery to cover this failure? Or, that they have produced the bikes but the market interest is not there to purchase them, so again they have stalled introduction. Or they have introduced the new 961 and nobody is purchasing.

Have to say that I think you guys may be ejaculating prematurely. As I understand it, they are yet to deliver the first new 961 - indication is this month or next. They have shown an abundance of caution more recently (hence perceived delays I guess), admitting in the past they made statements a little prematurely. They will also be acutely aware that releasing the model before they are ‘completely ready’ could be an unmitigated disaster because you guys (and those in the perennially sceptical club - no offence intended) would absolutely slaughter them - you can see the SG era comparisons they have tried so hard to avoid making headlines across the motorcycle world, again! Let’s face it CG, you are still doing it now - note your SG era story above.

Can you legitimately compare Donington Norton and Shelby to TVS?

My guess is that Birmingham Norton is trying (really) hard to ensure that delivery and subsequent support is as successful as it can possibly be. Delivering an almost identical bike to a model that had previously failed would seem to necessitate this.

Who’s gonna buy them? Some of these 185,000 guys I suppose, plus the old boys that go nowhere near a computer.

My advice would be to ‘keep your powder dry’, buy a recliner and a good bottle of red

!

Regards.

Steve.

Gojuu · Mar 13, 2023

I love these factual threads with no clutter

Stephen_Spencer · Mar 14, 2023

T

Gojuu said:
I love these factual threads with no clutter

There are so few facts out there, without the clutter, conjecture and clap-trap there wouldn’t be a forum

! Luckily the forum is also a form of entertainment right? If we only produced technical torque (pardon the pun) the forum would be pretty dull!

City Garage · Mar 14, 2023

Stephen_Spencer said:
You indicate your beliefs V2D3/CG, in a significant level of deception, but still do not make clear to what end - a bit of veiled speech going on. So, piecing it together, I guess you believe either that Birminghan Norton has tried (and potentially failed) to get into the production phase and are now stalling delivery to cover this failure? Or, that they have produced the bikes but the market interest is not there to purchase them, so again they have stalled introduction. Or they have introduced the new 961 and nobody is purchasing.

View attachment 104685

Have to say that I think you guys may be ejaculating prematurely. As I understand it, they are yet to deliver the first new 961 - indication is this month or next. They have shown an abundance of caution more recently (hence perceived delays I guess), admitting in the past they made statements a little prematurely. They will also be acutely aware that releasing the model before they are ‘completely ready’ could be an unmitigated disaster because you guys (and those in the perennially sceptical club - no offence intended) would absolutely slaughter them - you can see the SG era comparisons they have tried so hard to avoid making headlines across the motorcycle world, again! Let’s face it CG, you are still doing it now - note your SG era story above.

Can you legitimately compare Donington Norton and Shelby to TVS?

View attachment 104689

My guess is that Birmingham Norton is trying (really) hard to ensure that delivery and subsequent support is as successful as it can possibly be. Delivering an almost identical bike to a model that had previously failed would seem to necessitate this.

View attachment 104686

Who’s gonna buy them? Some of these 185,000 guys I suppose, plus the old boys that go nowhere near a computer.

View attachment 104687

My advice would be to ‘keep your powder dry’, buy a recliner and a good bottle of red!

Regards.

Steve.

From post #6

So here is an easier way to say what I am saying. Where are the motorcycles, and if they are truly selling, then where are the new owners at?

For me it’s that simple. And again reread what I said. By all appearances they are making motorcycle. .

And if you think the 185k represents a pool of “new” Norton owners then I would tell you to lay off the red. Look at the amount of bikes on the resale market.

I have no problem waiting to see what is what and again if your read anything I’ve posted I’ve simply asked if there are buyers then stand up and let us know. The fact we don’t have 10 people or even a few people just on this forum saying hey I bought one or in contract etc was my main point. If they are getting close to releasing those bikes again where are those owners like in the text exchange saying deliveries are scheduled etc

Don’t make this a black or white issue. Nothing deceptive with what I wrote. Asking a question about why aren’t the new owners popping up in places is interesting to me. Not one person here? I mean not even a I know a guy who knows a a guy who is buying one stories so I was hoping my post would open that door to something like hey I know Steve knows a guy who has purchased and waiting for delivery

City Garage · Mar 14, 2023

Gojuu said:
I love these factual threads with no clutter

I’m shipping you some Alibaba bolts!!

City Garage · Mar 14, 2023

Stephen_Spencer said:
T

There are so few facts out there, without the clutter, conjecture and clap-trap there wouldn’t be a forum! Luckily the forum is also a form of entertainment right? If we only produced technical torque (pardon the pun) the forum would be pretty dull!

That’s sort of the point isn’t it. Also just because I’m curious If they sell here I would buy one if only to tear it down to see what’s changed.

Stephen_Spencer · Mar 14, 2023

City Garage said:
From post #6

So here is an easier way to say what I am saying. Where are the motorcycles, and if they are truly selling, then where are the new owners at?

For me it’s that simple. And again reread what I said. By all appearances they are making motorcycle. .

And if you think the 185k represents a pool of “new” Norton owners then I would tell you to lay off the red. Look at the amount of bikes on the resale market.

I have no problem waiting to see what is what and again if your read anything I’ve posted I’ve simply asked if there are buyers then stand up and let us know. The fact we don’t have 10 people or even a few people just on this forum saying hey I bought one or in contract etc was my main point. If they are getting close to releasing those bikes again where are those owners like in the text exchange saying deliveries are scheduled etc

Don’t make this a black or white issue. Nothing deceptive with what I wrote. Asking a question about why aren’t the new owners popping up in places is interesting to me. Not one person here? I mean not even a I know a guy who knows a a guy who is buying one stories so I was hoping my post would open that door to something like hey I know Steve knows a guy who has purchased and waiting for delivery

Not deception by yourselves CG, deception you guys infer TVS may be up to - Shelby tactics etc. Maybe we both need to re-read

.

We should discount 185K people following Norton FB page as prospective buyers, because there are a few Donington models on the open market? Whilst looking closely at the absence of any reference to purchase on this site - when it has so few active members? Many of whom already own one.

This is clearly not a black and white issue and I’m certainly not making it so. It is opaque because Norton is yet to start delivering machines or to provide any after sales service. No actual sales performance to assess or measure.

Clive · Mar 14, 2023

I would like to know the story of the 'famous 40'. They were lined up quite early on when I visited the factory and was told 'we are not releasing them until we are happy with the quality'. It's a bit tricky to work out timelines because Solihull Norton were testing bikes extensively around then without any publicity but my guess is that these were built from 'old' parts. If this is the case then what became of them?

CoconutJo75 · Mar 14, 2023

There's one on AutoTrader now clive - if you look over the pics closely, the visible changes from the new bikes and parts have been implemented. I understand from the factory that these 40 or so bikes are with customers...

I think we should try and support the new factory in its ambition to proceed carefully and to maintain their credibility. I've ordered a bike - but I suspect most of the few orders they've received will be from people who aren't on here!

Voodooo · Mar 14, 2023

Stephen_Spencer said:
You indicate your beliefs V2D3/CG, in a significant level of deception, but still do not make clear to what end - a bit of veiled speech going on. So, piecing it together, I guess you believe either that Birminghan Norton has tried (and potentially failed) to get into the production phase and are now stalling delivery to cover this failure? Or, that they have produced the bikes but the market interest is not there to purchase them, so again they have stalled introduction. Or they have introduced the new 961 and nobody is purchasing.

View attachment 104685

Have to say that I think you guys may be ejaculating prematurely. As I understand it, they are yet to deliver the first new 961 - indication is this month or next. They have shown an abundance of caution more recently (hence perceived delays I guess), admitting in the past they made statements a little prematurely. They will also be acutely aware that releasing the model before they are ‘completely ready’ could be an unmitigated disaster because you guys (and those in the perennially sceptical club - no offence intended) would absolutely slaughter them - you can see the SG era comparisons they have tried so hard to avoid making headlines across the motorcycle world, again! Let’s face it CG, you are still doing it now - note your SG era story above.

Can you legitimately compare Donington Norton and Shelby to TVS?

View attachment 104689

My guess is that Birmingham Norton is trying (really) hard to ensure that delivery and subsequent support is as successful as it can possibly be. Delivering an almost identical bike to a model that had previously failed would seem to necessitate this.

View attachment 104686

Who’s gonna buy them? Some of these 185,000 guys I suppose, plus the old boys that go nowhere near a computer.

View attachment 104687

My advice would be to ‘keep your powder dry’, buy a recliner and a good bottle of red!

Regards.

Steve.

What I’m saying is.
TVS has been playing games with the spare parts talk, and I don’t believe they can deliver because they don’t have them to sell.

If I saved and shared all the emails I received from TVS of the parts I’ve been trying to get for the last 3 years, it would make your head spin.

One minute they are working on collecting them, the next they want part numbers, Covid, parts shortage, please submit payment as your order is ready to ship, we can’t accept credit card payments, please do a bank transfer, sorry those parts are not available, we don’t feel comfortable selling parts to Donington owners, we have a new person in the parts department and cannot find your order, etc etc etc.

I’m defeated and simply given up and moved on. I really don’t care anymore.

It’s all left a bad taste in my mouth and even if I could buy a new Norton today, I’d run away from them after all the hassle and run arounds. It certainly doesn’t make a good impression to me on a new purchase.
I know to you I’m negative, but until you’ve dealt with it over and over, it’s really not worth the trouble.

I also don’t see TVS selling 1000s of 961 Commandos. That’s just my opinion.
Having 185k followers, doesn’t equal sales numbers.
If TVS is focusing on just UK sales, they’ll never survive. Sure it takes time, but time is running out because the interest will die when products are not available to supply the buying customer.

Not everyone is willing to wait years for a product purchase.

Gojuu · Mar 14, 2023

Stephen_Spencer said:
T

There are so few facts out there, without the clutter, conjecture and clap-trap there wouldn’t be a forum! Luckily the forum is also a form of entertainment right? If we only produced technical torque (pardon the pun) the forum would be pretty dull!

@Stephen_Spencer Maaaaate, you’ve doubled down and started to conjecture about conjecture?!? Brilliant

cliffa · Mar 14, 2023

As far as I'm aware only the pre-ordered @ Donnington bikes have been delivered so far (last year) and delivery of the new bikes is imminent. There are quite a few folks on the Facebook group who have visited the factory, liked what they saw and put their money down.

Facts separate from the clutter

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