Ethanol, For What Its Worth

Spent quite a bit of time talkiing to a guy yesterday that seemed to actually know what he was talking about. He owns a 1948 Chrysler New Yorker and is a member of an antique car club, he, along with other members have been having fits with gas containing Ethanol. He is also some sort of chemical engineer, retired.

According to him, the best and most economical treatment is Sta-Bil MARINE formula. 32 oz bottle treats around 320 gallons of gas. I jsut bough one yesterday at Wally World for $20. he said that since using this he and his pals have had much fewer carb, hose and fuel pump issues. I for one, found his information quite interesting, Just wanted to pass this on as a For What Its Worth column.

just putting this out there, I've been bouncing this around in my head for a little while (there's a lot of room)
according to previous posts, one test for ethanol in gas is adding water and looking for seperation, because Ethanol absorbs the water
if this isthe case, could the ethanol be removed by mixing gas with water, allowing it to seperate, then either draining the "seperation", or syphoning off the gas?
or is this an attogether stupid idea?
did a quick web search but didn't find anything that looked definative (but lot's that was argumentative)

My friend Bud got a big can of chevron techron from a fellow who used to have an airplane. He put some in his newer Buick Riviera and it ate the fuel lines. He was not happy. My other aviation friend says AV gas never goes bad. It has some real longevity chemicals in it. I am waiting to get some AV gas from him primarily for the Triumph which is 10.5 :1 compression and could use it. I might as well put some in the old Norton fiber tank and see if it helps out.

I like this thread already. I am going to add my illogical thinking to the mix. I would think that if the ethanol absorbs water it would homogenize the mix and prevent initial separation between the fuel and water.
FYI, I have no educated reasoning to back this up. I am only throwing it out there so those of you who know the science can explain it in," Science for Dummies" terms.
Gary

I'm thinking the theory is that as the Ethanol becomes one with the water, the specific gravity increases to a point where the gas (lower sg) sits on top of it.

If any one of the various snake oils that have started to be pushed very hard on the back of scare stories about ethanol, actually worked, you would think the manufacturers would have had them properly tested independently? I think it can be taken as read that anything which relies on advertising blurb alone, rather than any form of proper testing is likely to be a complete waste of money!

The problem with ethanol-gasoline mixtures is that they are unstable, and segregate after a few months, or even weeks. The ethanol volume of this segregated mixture is hydroscopic, and absorbs water from the air-fuel interface. This ethanol-water mixture is more dense than gasoline, and settles to the bottom of the fuel tank, where it happily rusts away steel tanks. Under normal driving conditions, where the fuel tank is refreshed every week or so, the problem never occurs. However, up here in the PNW, where we are blessed with long and rainy winters, our boats and motorcycles can easily stand unused for several months. When I drained the tanks of my bikes after their first winter lay-up, the fuel at the bottom of the tanks came out as a combination of pure gasoline and several suspended blobs of water containing rust and other unholy solids. I've used Sta-Bil every winter since and have not seen this problem reappear. For my Victor, which may go a month or so between rides (too many bikes, too few sunny days), I use the product year-round.

I used to work in the petroleum industry installing tanks, piping, dispensers, etc. Underground storage tanks naturally collect water from condensation in drop tubes and risers among other things (leaky fittings!) Most tanks will have about an inch of water in the BOTTOM of the tank. When it gets to be a couple inches, it is usually pumped off of the bottom of the tank and all is well. That was fine and dandy until ethanol came along. When a tanker drops product into a tank, even with a drop tube that is usally 4" off the bottom of the tank, all that water and sludge and crap gets stirred up. With non-ethanol gas, the water and crud just settles back down to the bottom and since the submersible pump should be about 4" off the bottom of the tank, no water or crud got pumped to the dispenser. Ethanol gas suspends the water in the gas and does not allow it to seperate. When Ethanol hit the local gas stations, owners were literally ordering dispenser filters BY THE CASE because they would instantly plug up. It was not uncommon for our service techs to change filters 3 or 4 times over a weekend after the switch, whereas before ethanol, filters would last for a minimun of a year. We always suggested that the station owner hire a tank cleaning service before switching to ethanol gas to save the headache of changing filters.

FWIW-there are tons of gas stations out there with underground fiberglass tanks and piping. To my knowledge, no real problems have come up with them yet regarding ethanol fuel.

According to the owner of the local lawn mower repair shop, he's enjoying increased repair revenues and sales of new/used equipment; he said that the gas here in SoCal begins to cause problems in 60 - 90 days. Only the continuous/daily use pros escape it; homeowners like me, with once a month, or less, usage spend their Saturdays diddling with clogged carburetors.

I can no longer fill a 5 gallon "yard equipment" gas jug and use it until it's gone. I've resorted to the inconvenience of a single 1 gallon can and I waste gas and my time by running/idling the lawnmower and weed wacker until they run out of gas.

I have begun the same procedure with my motorcycles; after a ride of a bike I know I will not be riding again for a month or more, I use an outboard motor pump primer bulb to drain the bikes' tanks and then I waste gas and cause pollution by idling them until they are empty.

So long as no engine is put away with fuel in the tank, it will be OK.

The California South Coast Air Quality Management District (AQMD) will be aghast but I admit that, because of them, I now tend to throw the last inch of gas out onto the ground to evaporate - that's where the watered gunk is. Depending on the age of the gas, I also place a folded paper towel into a funnel and filter the gas that goes into any tank. Of course that folded gas laden paper towel now evaporates too.

It's self defeating, I don't want polluted air. I don't want to pollute the air by throwing gas onto the ground, by throwing a gas laden paper filtration towel into the trash, and more fundamentally, I think it wrong to waste gas in the first place.

In their utopian zeal, the regulators, have us all chasing our tails. Why do we, as a free society, put up with this?

Underground fiberglass ethanol blend gas station fuel tanks . . . . . . hmmmmm.
Good intentions, unintended consequences.

Interestingly enough one of the reasons for the introduction of ethanol was to do with fuel leaking into the water table from US fuel station storage tanks (many of which still have leaky old steel tanks!), and (spurious?) concerns about the MTBE additives the fuel contained being carcinogenic.

Subsequently at an early stage MTBE was phased out in several US states, and today pretty much everywhere in the world is MTBE free! End users are now obliged to put up with fuel products which simply arent fit for purpose in many cases, and are left to bear the cost of sometimes very expensive repairs to vehicles and equipment damaged by Efuels.

gory said:

just putting this out there, I've been bouncing this around in my head for a little while (there's a lot of room)
according to previous posts, one test for ethanol in gas is adding water and looking for seperation, because Ethanol absorbs the water
if this isthe case, could the ethanol be removed by mixing gas with water, allowing it to seperate, then either draining the "seperation", or syphoning off the gas?
or is this an attogether stupid idea?
did a quick web search but didn't find anything that looked definative (but lot's that was argumentative)

Click to expand...

It could be done, but the resulting gas would be of unknown octane rating. It would probably drop it below what is even sold at the pump....so terrible for Nortons.

On a unrelated note. If the fuel systems can handle it, E85 will add some get up. I know a few people that have converted their streetable drag cars and bikes and can really turn up the boost.

Being as I hear a lot of horror stories from the outboard motor users, and how they feel an additive helps with the ethanol situaltion, I for One will spend a few pennies per tank for my own piece of mind. Hell, I'm worth it!

Duh, alcohol is what's used/sold as HEET to absorb water from tanks but it can only absorb so much before its sol-solute affinity becomes dense enough to sink do its damage, stalling the fire or eating surfaces. If ya can keep the low dose of this stirred up enough engines can burn it off. Alcohol alone is a good fuel and so are its mixtures if consumed quick enough. BTW liquid water sinks in plain pure gasoline separated on the bottom and is why past fuel supplies to tractors etc have glass bells to observe. Its also standard practice to dump carb bowl in a clear jar to see if a bubble or layer of clear water seen to help diagnosis reason for crappy running.

Adding alcohol to gas increases the octane rating-anti detonation proneness but lowers the energy content. The only reason E85 is considered a hot rod fuel is d/t the octane allowing more CR and ignition advance than less expensive fuels.
Not all of its anti-detonation quality is d/t chemistry of its combustion but from expansion cooling as it phase changes to a vapor. If the fuel storage and engine systems are made to tolerate alcohol and not let sit up long then fine fuel. Commercial storage don't sit around real long and has provisions as described deal with the water layer on bottoms.

Be weary of the so called protective additives and they don't really react with the achohol but mostly to keep more water dissolved to burn off and anti-oxidants to preserve fuel and surfaces better, but may eat non metal parts.

The reason ethanol is forced on us is economic schemes polit-tickians get kick backs for and is by far the major reason for spiked in food prices, and magnified by fuel speculators where it used to be mostly the end consumers buying futures.

I'm lucky the rural backwards Ozarks has enough non-spiked gas stations to get by. Might consider a home storage + standard stabilizer as you can store it a long time like over a year easy. Wonder how booze gas does on tank paint?

Today's daily ride to collect organic raw honey and time to time real petrol.
Marble is only two gas general stores, one fancy truck stop with booze gas and the other this quaint one right next to a marble slab shop, that move there many decades after place named Marble. Sign hand painted -100% gas-

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/48520 ... 600Q85.jpg

Fight back (for those of you in free states, ie no CA) and buy ethanol free whenever you can.

ethanol-free-gas-t9927.html

Seems really weird that all those who have needed to meet costly repair bills as a direct result of using Efuels, which in the case of many end users are simply not fit for purpose, seem quite ok with this situation and are not willing to take any sort of class action over it?

If all those adversely affected by Efuels were able to work together over the situation, then I would imagine it would be difficult/impossible for corrupt government/big business to continue to claim white was black, and no damage was being caused by these fuels.

It seems a liitle unfair to me that this stupid idea came out of the US but that ethanol-free is still available there, yet in Europe we can't avoid rubbish which shouldn't be more than 5% but which smells like gun-wash.

I too drain my carb after every ride and tip the residue on the weeds in the gravel drive. I mutter a curse on environmentalists and politicians as I do it.

Bring back leaded fuel, I say. What are a few IQ points to inner-city kids who'll never get a job anyway ?

Dear Anonymous, appreciate your efforts and attitudes but a century+ of nasty coal-tar-crude-petroleum cartels power has been invested to assure no public reaction can matter much. Corn and land, carbon waste is falling out of favor so I do expect booze fuel to be replaced in our life time. These same cartels entwined with global banksters are a big part of the reason its cost so much to do it right and too much for many to buy right off the bat. In lots of ways the baby boomer generation has lived through the best of times in all of human history. Never again will kids be able to pick up bottles for a weekend of pure gasoline to burn.

Been thinking about mold injected ceramic tanks. Also found a tank plastic coater ad in Walneck[sp] magazine. Here's only thing I could find on this lead but not the actual shop offering it. Maybe you can investigate for us with your background. Dacati plastic tank fixing/preventing dissolving thread...
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index ... ic=46743.0

In real terms lead in petrol had very little negative effect on the environment, but in common with the introduction of MTBE and then ethanol, political points could be scored by getting rid of it, and thats something which is obviously an awful lot more important than pretty much anything else!

There is nowhere near me , (US Illinois) that I can get fuel without ethanol. I have an older Z28 Camaro (1977) that sees very little use and I am concerned about that junk sitting in the tank for so long. I now have this Norton with a fiberglass tank that I have to wonder about.
I hate it when things are forced on me. I have no choice but to use the 10% fuel.
MikeM