End float, etc.

Hi,

I noticed that the end float on my crank seemed to disappear after I assembled the primary. I definitely had some when I first assembled the crank in the cases. When I noticed it, I figured the oil pump worm gear was providing some resistance to the crank from moving side to side.

I was starting to assemble the primary and I'm also noticing the crank keyway is really close the to new timing seal. It looks like the key is really close to the seal, possibly touching it. I'm not sure if this could be related to the endfloat issue, maybe I just need to drive the seal further in, but it looks flush with the crankcase.

Has anyone seen this before?

-Eric

ewgoforth said:

Hi,

I noticed that the end float on my crank seemed to disappear after I assembled the primary. I definitely had some when I first assembled the crank in the cases. When I noticed it, I figured the oil pump worm gear was providing some resistance to the crank from moving side to side.

I was starting to assemble the primary and I'm also noticing the crank keyway is really close the to new timing seal. It looks like the key is really close to the seal, possibly touching it. I'm not sure if this could be related to the endfloat issue, maybe I just need to drive the seal further in, but it looks flush with the crankcase.

Has anyone seen this before?

-Eric

Click to expand...

Yes, sounds like you need to push the seal in a little more. Jim

just looking at mine, seal is flush with the case and the new key which came supplied with the ends shortened, probably for this reason.
a gap of about 1/16" or a bit more between the end of the key and the seal.

comnoz said:

ewgoforth said:

Hi,

I noticed that the end float on my crank seemed to disappear after I assembled the primary. I definitely had some when I first assembled the crank in the cases. When I noticed it, I figured the oil pump worm gear was providing some resistance to the crank from moving side to side.

I was starting to assemble the primary and I'm also noticing the crank keyway is really close the to new timing seal. It looks like the key is really close to the seal, possibly touching it. I'm not sure if this could be related to the endfloat issue, maybe I just need to drive the seal further in, but it looks flush with the crankcase.

Has anyone seen this before?

-Eric

Click to expand...

Yes, sounds like you need to push the seal in a little more. Jim

Click to expand...

Hey Jim,

What about the endfloat? My recollection is that I could grab the sprocket and move the crank side to side back when the engine was last running, four years ago. I felt roughly the same about of end play on the crank before I put the timing side stuff together. I don't have the sprocket on currently, so I can't get as good a grip as before. Is it normal for the oil pump worm gear to prevent endfloat? I'm going to take the timing cover off and double check that everything looks kosher and that the lipped washer and the triangle washer are on the crank, but I'm 95% sure they are. This is only the second time I've put the bottom end together, but I've had the primary apart many many times in the bike's history to adjust the timing chain and/or service the oil pump to slow down the wet sumping. I've put almost 90,000 miles on it.

Thanks,
-Eric

ewgoforth said:

Hi,


I was starting to assemble the primary and I'm also noticing the crank keyway is really close the to new timing seal. It looks like the key is really close to the seal, possibly touching it. I'm not sure if this could be related to the endfloat issue, maybe I just need to drive the seal further in, but it looks flush with the crankcase.

Has anyone seen this before?

-Eric

Click to expand...

You say upon assembling the primary, I assume mounting the inner, you have lost endplay. If you back out the inner primary mounting bolts does the endplay come back? Are you using the standard bolts to mount the primary?

There is another unsung member here who's inner primary bolts seemed too long and interfered with the crank. This of course would explain the lose of endplay and why the keyway may seem closer to the seal.
Just a guess!

I messed up my previous post. I meant timing cover, not primary. After I assembled the timing cover innards, I noticed that I could no longer move the crank side to side. So I'm assuming the oil pump worm gear is preventing the motion.

ewgoforth said:

I messed up my previous post. I meant timing cover, not primary. After I assembled the timing cover innards, I noticed that I could no longer move the crank side to side. So I'm assuming the oil pump worm gear is preventing the motion.

Click to expand...

Before you remove the pump check there is a small amount of backlash between the pump gear and the crank gear. Try it in more than one crank position. It maybe meshing to tightly if it seems ok then maybe an issue with the timing cover fit.

ewgoforth said:

comnoz said:

ewgoforth said:

Hi,

I noticed that the end float on my crank seemed to disappear after I assembled the primary. I definitely had some when I first assembled the crank in the cases. When I noticed it, I figured the oil pump worm gear was providing some resistance to the crank from moving side to side.

I was starting to assemble the primary and I'm also noticing the crank keyway is really close the to new timing seal. It looks like the key is really close to the seal, possibly touching it. I'm not sure if this could be related to the endfloat issue, maybe I just need to drive the seal further in, but it looks flush with the crankcase.

Has anyone seen this before?

-Eric

Click to expand...

Yes, sounds like you need to push the seal in a little more. Jim

Click to expand...

Hey Jim,

What about the endfloat? My recollection is that I could grab the sprocket and move the crank side to side back when the engine was last running, four years ago. I felt roughly the same about of end play on the crank before I put the timing side stuff together. I don't have the sprocket on currently, so I can't get as good a grip as before. Is it normal for the oil pump worm gear to prevent endfloat? I'm going to take the timing cover off and double check that everything looks kosher and that the lipped washer and the triangle washer are on the crank, but I'm 95% sure they are. This is only the second time I've put the bottom end together, but I've had the primary apart many many times in the bike's history to adjust the timing chain and/or service the oil pump to slow down the wet sumping. I've put almost 90,000 miles on it.

Thanks,
-Eric

Click to expand...

If the endplay that was obvious before seems to have gone away it is likely that the temperature of the engine cases may be a little lower so the bearing does not slide as easily in the outer race. At least I have noticed this before with C1 bearings. I have never seen damage happen because of this.

I generally don't worry too much about crank endplay. I have never seen a bike that came from the factory with Superblends that had any shims installed.

The only problems I have seen with crank endplay is -if it is too tight then the ends of the superblend rollers show scuffing if the bike is ridden hard.
If it is way too loose then there may be contact between the back of the crank sprocket and the case.

As madass pointed out -the ends of the key should be cut to avoid seal contact. They are normally supplied that way.

If you case has a shoulder to stop the seal from going in too far then the seal should be pushed up against it. That usually positions a metal cased seal slightly lower than the case. Jim

You need to find out why you don't appear to have end float. The book says 5-15 thou. 10 thou means the crank will clonk back and forwards. At some point after you added something, that end float "disappeared".

" I put the " " round "disappeared" because I cant be sure it has disappeared. That's for you to confirm. My 850 had 20 thou end float before I pulled it apart. Didn't cause a problem but the end float was really obvious.
Dereck

I checked for backlash between the worm gear and the oil pump gear in several positions and it was there. I pulled the oil pump off and I could feel the end play again, I put it back and I can't. I think the crank probably is moving side to side with the oil pump, but it adds enough friction that it isn't really perceptible.

I got an old Starett dial indicator at a flea market over fifteen years ago, but never could figure out how to rig up the mounting fixture to measure end float. I spent some time playing with it, taking apart some of the clamping parts, cleaning them and reassembling them. At any rate I figured out how to attach it to one of the stator studs and read the end float off the alternator nut, with the timing side all together. I measured right at .006" of end float, just above the minimum of .005". I couldn't really feel the crank moving side to side, but I could see it on the dial indicator.