Downshifting 3rd to 2nd

Sgt80

Sgt80

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Has anybody had the experience of downshifts from 3rd to 2nd and ending up in neutral? I've had my SE (built May '14) for 3 months and have put on a little over 700 miles in 5 or 6 rides. All up shifts and downshifts work just fine except 3rd to 2nd. At first I thought it was "muscle memory" from the way I shifted my previous bike, a BMW GS. I have become very conscious of this downshift and have tried light and heavier tapping of the shifter. Hitting neutral during this shift doesn't happen all time, maybe 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 times, but it happens enough that it is more than annoying. Mechanical problem, fluid choice (I have Motul 10W40 semi-syn) or should I shoot for a specific RPM range for this downshift?
 
This happened to me a lot in the last year. I designed a new shift linkage internal that prevented it but I don’t have a lot of miles to prove it 100% solved the issue so I haven’t yet shared. Due to Canadian winters Testing will continue in the spring. If it works, then I’ll make a bunch at put them in the CNW site. If it did not solve the issue, it was a worn piece that was not heat treated correctly, so at least it will last me a lot longer than my original.

PS yes, like you I tried hard and soft shifting and this linkage after inspection is the only thing we could come up with that made any sense.
 
richard-7 said:
Page 4 of my transmission manual
Click to expand...
On the one hand it is good to know that this shifting issue is not due to a lack of talent on my part....are you saying that setting the gear selector of the shift mechanism assembly might help or should I just live with it until you have fully vetted your "shift linkage internal"? The question still remains...why just problems with this particular downshift (3rd to 2nd) when all other up and downshift combinations work fine?
 
Are you finding a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd gear ? Or you are really in neutral ? So the gear set is going right past second and into neutral ? The up shift is always OK ? Any problems under acceleration jumping out of gear ?
 
TonyA said:
Are you finding a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd gear ? Or you are really in neutral ? So the gear set is going right past second and into neutral ? The up shift is always OK ? Any problems under acceleration jumping out of gear ?
Click to expand...
No.Yes.Yes.Yes.No.
 
The linkage is super soft on mine and was worn badly. I made one out of pre hard 4140 and wire edm cut it. Plus I altered the geometry slightly from the original. Seemed to work but not enough miles. I’m sure they are not all soft because i did a hardness test on my dads and it was 45rc. Mine was so soft it didn’t register on the rockwell C scale. We tested another and it was also harder but not as hard. So not sure what’s going on. But aside from the hardness I refined the geometry. I used to share this stuff with Norton but they no longer acknowledge my emails so Ive given up. Ive tried having a relationship with Simon Skinner but the way he ignores me trying to help the factory, unless he starts emailing me, I’m done making suggestions. Which is really too bad. I even think my email is blocked because Ive shared at least 2 other issues without a reply.

Anyhow, don’t freak out yet. And remind me in a few months and I’ll send you one to try as my dad asked me to make him about 10 of them.
 
This is from the Service Manual under troubleshooting :



 Over shifts:


 Gear positioning lever spring weak or broken

 Shift mechanism arm spring broken



 Jumps out of gear:


 Shift fork worn, bent

 Gear groove worm

 Gear dogs and/or dog recesses worn

 Shift drum groove worn

 Gear positioning lever spring weak or broken

 Shift fork pin worn

 Drive shaft, output, and/or gear splines worn
 
richard-7 said:
The linkage is super soft on mine and was worn badly. I made one out of pre hard 4140 and wire edm cut it. Plus I altered the geometry slightly from the original. Seemed to work but not enough miles. I’m sure they are not all soft because i did a hardness test on my dads and it was 45rc. Mine was so soft it didn’t register on the rockwell C scale. We tested another and it was also harder but not as hard. So not sure what’s going on. But aside from the hardness I refined the geometry. I used to share this stuff with Norton but they no longer acknowledge my emails so Ive given up. Ive tried having a relationship with Simon Skinner but the way he ignores me trying to help the factory, unless he starts emailing me, I’m done making suggestions. Which is really too bad. I even think my email is blocked because Ive shared at least 2 other issues without a reply.

Anyhow, don’t freak out yet. And remind me in a few months and I’ll send you one to try as my dad asked me to make him about 10 of them.
Click to expand...
Thank you Richard!
 
TonyA said:
This is from the Service Manual under troubleshooting :



 Over shifts:


 Gear positioning lever spring weak or broken

 Shift mechanism arm spring broken



 Jumps out of gear:


 Shift fork worn, bent

 Gear groove worm

 Gear dogs and/or dog recesses worn

 Shift drum groove worn

 Gear positioning lever spring weak or broken

 Shift fork pin worn

 Drive shaft, output, and/or gear splines worn
Click to expand...
Thank you Tony! I do have a Service Manual so I'll check it out.
 
Also, my dad has rebuilt a lot of motors now and seems to think the bolt is binding the detent mechanism and it may not be making full engagement. That with the new geometry linkage. Could be the fix. More to come...
 
richard-7 said:
Also, my dad has rebuilt a lot of motors now and seems to think the bolt is binding the detent mechanism and it may not be making full engagement. That with the new geometry linkage. Could be the fix. More to come...
Click to expand...
When mine was self down shifting, the factory thought it was the detent spring, but nope, it was the tranny. I'm sure you guys could have rebuilt it in a jiffy. I only had to wait 7 months.
 
SgtUSAF80 said:
Has anybody had the experience of downshifts from 3rd to 2nd and ending up in neutral? I've had my SE (built May '14) for 3 months and have put on a little over 700 miles in 5 or 6 rides. All up shifts and downshifts work just fine except 3rd to 2nd. At first I thought it was "muscle memory" from the way I shifted my previous bike, a BMW GS. I have become very conscious of this downshift and have tried light and heavier tapping of the shifter. Hitting neutral during this shift doesn't happen all time, maybe 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 times, but it happens enough that it is more than annoying. Mechanical problem, fluid choice (I have Motul 10W40 semi-syn) or should I shoot for a specific RPM range for this downshift?
Click to expand...
I thought I would give this situation one last shot to the great minds and knowledge of the Access Norton group before probably having to drop some big bucks on a repair.
The gearbox and the clutch on my May 2014 build SE works flawlessly.... EXCEPT THE 3RD TO 2ND DOWNSHIFT. It goes right to neutral on almost every shift. If I'm lucky it only happens 50% of the time! Frustrating and dangerous!!

Any ideas?
 
Is it going to real neutral between 1st and 2nd ? Or is it finding a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd ? Upshifts are always OK ? If you are willing to remove the primary cover , check for hook wear (the hooked arm that works against the pegs in the star) , and also check the star for wear on the 3rd to 2nd teeth . Then finish by checking and setting the range of adjustment for the shifting mechanism . Look in the Richard-7 (Cootes manuals) very helpful with pictures.
 
TonyA said:
Is it going to real neutral between 1st and 2nd ? Or is it finding a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd ? Upshifts are always OK ? If you are willing to remove the primary cover , check for hook wear (the hooked arm that works against the pegs in the star) , and also check the star for wear on the 3rd to 2nd teeth . Then finish by checking and setting the range of adjustment for the shifting mechanism . Look in the Richard-7 (Cootes manuals) very helpful with pictures.
Click to expand...
Yes, it goes to real neutral and the upshifts are always OK!
 
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