Diesel oil for my old and new gals

I figured with most crap and carbon/blow by on the first 'run in' and for long term, why not use hi detergent oil with metal package for non catalytic converter engines.
I did then looked around for rationale to support my feelings and found this a few years ago. This is on old cars but similar found for old aircraft and tractors builders.

http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tp ... 3011052071

most Deisel oils are high deturgent and my experiance with harley world was " if you can't buy harley oil use deisel oil" valoline 20/50 xld does it for me

Been using shell rimula for years in Nortons, Laverda jota, 1200 Bandit - never had an engine related problem. Think its called Rotella in USA.

Hi, which kind of Rimula do you use ?? R4, R5 , R6 or R?????

Just a small warning, do not change from non detergent oil to detergent oil mid life, the detergent oil will release the material (sludge) collected in the centre of the crank and release it at the very least through the LH big end.

Below is a quote from Hobot's posted link:

"From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils."

Note the comment about the 4 cycle motorcycle oils. I have noted that Honda and Yamaha both sell oil specificly for 4-stroke engines.

So looking at an owners manual for one of my 4-stroke Honda engines it states:

"Use 4-stroke motor oil that meets or exceeds the requirements for API
service classification SF or SG. Always check the API SERVICE label on
the oil container to be sure it includes the letters SF or SG."

I have seen posts here that talk about the API service classification but thought this might be helpful if you are sorting thru all the different types on the shelf at your local Walmart. Both "SF" and "SG" are detergent type oils. Edit: That very last comment about detergent oils may not hold true. From looking at the oils on my shelf, the Honda and Yamaha 4 stroke oils will only show the SF or SG in the fine print. Finally, I can't believe I got sucked into another oil thread!

The most current recommendation I have seen is still for straight 40 weight engine oil, just as it was per the Norton service bulletin in the 70's. http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/SI%20Oil.htm I believe Norvil recommends straight weight oil as well.

For many years I worked as a diesel fitter for british rail and part of the job was to analyse engine oil to see if it required changing. We often had Shell scientists on site to check oil samples. I got to know a few and they all assured me that Shell oil for diesel engines was in fact perfectly ok for petrol engines as it was the same as Helix. So on this advice, and because we had barrels full, I used this Rimula X 20/50 in my everyday 72 Commando for years and years.
Years later and a new job I had to source my own bulk oil supply, so made a few enquiries and found Castrol RX fleet in 25litre drums. Lo and behold its states on drum "for petrol and diesel engines" and the castrol rep said that its GTX and the only difference between diesel and petrol engine oils is the packaging and it all comes out of the same tank! They also do Magnatec in bulk but called Constab PS specially for police use, and guess what "suitable for diesel and petrol engines". Anyway had a big diesel generator fitted in work and we now have on stock Rimula X 15/50.
All the reps from various oil companies have assured me, off the record, that diesel engine oil and petrol engine oil of the same grade is exactly the same just different packaging to display the different industry standards.
I think the oil companies like to muddy the waters to sell expensive "new" exotic oils to ignorant Joe public.
My final note is any fresh oil is better than any old oil is better than no oil at all!!

Thankyou for helping me rationalize my oil choices in easy to get oils. The most destructive things about oil is the corrosive acids which alkaline minerals/metals help neutralize but freq changes help even more. Water content is needed to from these acids so I want my oil to get close to boiling if I can, which also activates the Zn-Phos layer formation.

I seriously doubt, nay deny, that hi detergent oil could dissolve or emulsify crank or oil tank sludge layer. Its almost a ceramic of nano size metal dust bound by polymerized plastic like hydrocarbons. At most it make lighten the surface color of the sludge but break it up to tell in any way LOL! Detergent will take out the hydrocarbon varnish layers but not free up much to clog engines. In the old days the issue was taking out the varnishes made old motors even losser oil burners.

Besides the hard dust particles are likely too small to interfere with the hydrodynamic layer oil space. I don't have the figures but there is threshold particle size don't matter a whitworth to wear but maybe help polish smother.
Its educational to slice out the sludge then wash in wd/40 or other non lube solvent, which leaves a grey mess, which can be separated by magnet into ferric and non ferric elements. Its mass is By Far mostly metal dust and congealed oil.

I may put oil cooler for head supply only and up the exhaust side flow to help a bit with the cooking it gets there.

Splat I tried various solvents on both crank sludge with crank apart and oil tank with tank out. Nothing removed the stablized sludge layer after washing to point the solvents came out clear, still about same dang sludge layer remained. As everyone else I had to physically scrap layer off to matter any. On lesser nasty stuff I have to use a brush with diesel or gas to get clean metal to show. Same with gear box layer that is not exposed to combustion products or excessive heating baking. But taking your report to heart, implies only time detergent needed is on first start up run in, then just plain oil changed often enough to carry off acids and carbon gunk before it settles some where out of trouble or sits long to etch surfaces while parked.

Analysis of the particle size trapped in sludge would be interesting to see if much to worry about releasing them, if small enough they don't interfere with running clearance. Ms Peel oil fliter is a 40 micron screen meant as big hot rod fuel filter. No room to put paper filter on her nakedness, hope its enough with freq oil changes of Redline or other specaily oils. For my factory Combat I'll use Rotella or Mobil one mixed up to top off till next change. I should drain oil out my motors for winter storage to leave dry instead of moisture trap.

Here's next additive to be aware of, Boron as in eye wash solutions w/o water.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 134740.htm

That boron article was in 2007. What happened?

Dave
69S

FWIW, since I bought my Norton Commando (73 Mk I) with unknown mileage a few years ago, I have, with one interruption when I put new rings in last winter, run Redline synthetic 20W-50 in the crankcase. Redline is known as a very high-detergent oil.

My oil changes (at about 2-3K miles, with filter change) originally came out coal black. Then they turned dark brown, and more recently, the oil comes out looking a little dirty but not very - still a bit red colored and translucent as opposed to opaque. So I have to wonder if what sludge was in there to be removed, has been.

Dunno.

Re Boron...

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/bnen.html

Interesting about red line oil. A friend gave me a 350 chevy engine out of his van. The motor had a couple of hundred thousand miles on it. He decided to buy a crate engine instead of rebuilding. When I removed the oil pan, I could not believe my eyes. You could not have gotten it any cleaner in a hot tank. It looked like new inside. I asked my friend if he changed the oil in his van very regularly. "Nope, he said ,I never changed it". "I justed added a can of red line oil every once in a while". He does the same on his bikes. Not full red line changes, just a quart or so in the mix. I am still amazed.

I've read up some more on old tractor and car clubs - detergent in old engines.
Sludge particles are too small to be a friction issue while suspended by detergents, thats what darkens the oil most. In really old engines that never had detergent old clots of it can collect on oil pick up screen and starve engine. Proper protocol in a really used engine above is to clean out pan and valve covers and rocker valleys first then put in detergent oil in more and more concentration as color and filter guide.
So detergent oil is fine for Nortons especially if ~1200 ppm ZDDT+P.
SG and SF codes are worth remembering, but i've looked over whole ales of department store oil w/o finding any. So just grabbed Rottella and rode off w/o diesel smelling.

hobot, engines without filters normally it is recommended non detergent oil, to allow the particles to ''sludge'' up, detergent oil with filters to hold in suspension and hope fully taken out by filter.

I have been running Shell Rotela-T 40 Wt, in my bike for the last couple of years.
I figure if its recommended for Turbo charged Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engines it should be fine in a supercharged Norton.

splatt said:

hobot, engines without filters normally it is recommended non detergent oil, to allow the particles to ''sludge'' up, detergent oil with filters to hold in suspension and hope fully taken out by filter.

Click to expand...

I understand that concept, but wouldn't it also make sense to keep them in suspension and change it out often?

I'm left tingling every time Bruce pipes up, literally! Very happy to hear his choice of oils. Ms Peel is going be so hi strung and expensive I'll run Redline or similar special oil but won't worry much to use same diesel oil as in ole Trixie Combat.

As to old engines w/o filters being better to sludge up, I reject that conclusion with reasoning that they didn't have detergent oil back then and build sludge traps to catch it till cleaned out now and then or clogged up till failures. If you search enough you'll find a number of references on size of particles that matter to friction and dust size wear particles aren't an issue. So seems best to just keep them and hydrocarbon polymer crude suspended to flush oil with changes or trapped in filter. If a big clots of sludge breaks loose then oh oh. But they hardly ever do or just solvents slooshed around would clear out traps and tanks and sump.

On past Ms Peel I ran nothing but expensive synth. oil only now and then Rotella and a couple times of oil fitting leaks far from home, what ever a farmer had on hand, usually plain old 30 grade multi for cars. She had a standard filter on, changed out ~3000 miles way over kill ahead of time. Still found 1/8" layer of sludge in crankshaft. I've heard others report no sludge when running a filter. So I guess I don't completely understand the situation in my case.

Ms Peel is built to take 8000+ rpm, not that I or drive train could take that, but it means Drouin could spin over 50,000 rpm, I don't know if its turbo bearings Bruce installed are up to that for long. Then again how long could I even taste the G's twisting up 100+lbft and easy over that rwhp. I've already learned my lesions on transmission sleeve bushes heat red lined in lower gears, so ATF goes in there.

hobot
its upper 40's F, rainy dreary gray day, just perfect to get some lift of spirits flying through it on Ms Peel with a big shield. That's how much I loved to live on you know who. Question is can I ever again?