I've seen this on bonded brake shoes but not experienced it on pads. Just 8 miles from home and the lever went very soft. No nasty noises so I assumed a leak and air in the system. The pad material has sheared off the backing plate Made it back on the gears and back brake but not a nice feeling. BTW they are Brembos I got off Ebay many years ago and have about 25,000 miles on them. Each pad had a visibly different compound and the failure is from the outer pad which does not look so metallic as the inner. 1/2" bore conversion on std master cyl and reduced depth pistons a la Ludwig. That mod may be the problem of course and has overstressed the bond? Time for a new pair anyway!!
Detached pad material
- Thread starter Keith1069
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Disconcerting. I just ordered some pads from Commando Specialties that have similar "compound through the backing" design/construction.
When you reference "reduced depth pistons a la Ludwig" - I missed that one, what does that mod consist of?
When you reference "reduced depth pistons a la Ludwig" - I missed that one, what does that mod consist of?
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Keith1069 said:
I'd say the failure was likely to have been caused by corrosion, as the photo seems to show rust has undermined a significant area between the pad material and the backing plate and has probably weakened the bond between the two parts, and I've seen this before on old rusted pads where the friction material was beginning to separate from the backing plate.
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Old. Try A.P. racing pads or the Ferodos I recommend.
xbacksideslider said:
It was in this thread.
http://www.accessnorton.com/front-d...18356-15.html?hilit=ludwig brake pads#p231117
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L.A.B. said:
It's too much water on the pads without proper drying. Seen it before on cars that aren't used enough. Even causes brake shoes to do the same thing.
regards, Dereck
Thanks for responses. LAB (& Kerinorton) look to be spot on. The brown areas are indeed corrosion, I had not looked that closely. Easier to spot in the pics than in the flesh with my eyes. Here's the 'Ludwig' pic of the piston mod. Worked really well with the 1/2" MC, terrific bite from speed.
Going to try the Ferodo platinums from RGM, their cheap offer are the EMGOS so passed on those but have no experience of either.
Not the hard way or I wouldn't be typing this Steve! Lever went soft after a hard braking spell sequence, accelerate, roundabout, accelerate etc. Still pulled me up but back to the bars always bum clenching experience.
Going to try the Ferodo platinums from RGM, their cheap offer are the EMGOS so passed on those but have no experience of either.
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Its not the pads fault that this delamination occurred. I have std everything on my bike with the exception of the 12mm master cyl mod I designed myself. as I have mentioned before. I locked up my front wheel one time.
A friend has a new BMW w/c 1200 gs with less than 6K (Km). The brakes are linked so either lever operates both brakes. The bike has never been off road or ridden in the wet. After a mountain road play session we arrived back in town. Braking gently for traffic lights there was a loud high pitched screeching sound from his bike. Luckily the lights changed to green and he let the bike coast to a halt. Both rear brake pad friction material had parted company with the steel backing plates. The disc and pads were replaced Under warranty. Could not determine much about the cause as the friction material was gone and the backing plates were polished due to metal on metal. He is a very experienced rider (aged 84 and riding since 14) and his cool head and lack of panic saved what could have been a very serious situation. So this failure is not restricted to high mileage old bikes.
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Ugh hard enough way to me to discover this on the road so lucky it didn't jam up to snatch front out Splat of just gone rolling down a steep into busy hwy intersection. Just luck of the parts draw - like the BMW example which adds to the trill of each ride for me too. I've had fork leak and a master cylinder leak take out break completely from one great hard pull down to next instant nothing, no warning at all.
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I have had 2 occurances of friction material detaching from pads, but on a Land Rover!
These were EBC harder uprated pads that I used front and rear...it was th rears that suffered.....anyway I no longer use them....the overall stopping power was great on decents when warm....but a softer pad warms quicker meaning better stops from cold brakes.....and the rear never needed them....I would still use a slightly harder front if I was spending more time in the mountains around here (Northern Italy), but I would be prepared to pop them in and out.....
....unlike most cherished motorcycles (except Hobot's)....off roading vehicles are abused by their very nature....lots of water mud and grit...the issue does seem to start with corrosion, and even with segments of the friction material set into the metal backing it can happen as after the pad has detached the 'posts' can sheer off.
When you describe the source, dissimilarity, mileage and years since you acquired them there are several 'warnings'.......I mention this ony to deter others taking unecessary risks with braking, its not a personal hit.
Brake pads off eBay!.....were they what they were supposed to be, or fake? Not sure exactly how to avoid this when you want safety related stuff, but a supplier with a good reputation must be preferable....online or not....
Were they the right compound for your application.....race pads and other uprated pads are rarely good for road bikes except crutch rockets and mountain touring...take too much time to become effective.....
Dissimilar material?, if you could see that difference when you fitted them you would have been advised not to fit them, at the very least they will wear at different rates....probably reducing the life of one side of the disc whilst they do it and potentially grabbing.
It is amazing you used them for 25,000 but US highway riding needn't be hard on brakes, unlikely you would have achieved half of that around here.....maybe you will consider changing them more on spec in the future.....even if they only look half worn....
Ferodo Platimum are a good road pad, I use them in the rear of a race bike where they get very little use but they will work from cold when needed!, don't use any of their race compounds...see above...to hard....and that won't be obvious to feel if you are using a smaller pistoned master cylinder....but they still wont stop that well when cold..
These were EBC harder uprated pads that I used front and rear...it was th rears that suffered.....anyway I no longer use them....the overall stopping power was great on decents when warm....but a softer pad warms quicker meaning better stops from cold brakes.....and the rear never needed them....I would still use a slightly harder front if I was spending more time in the mountains around here (Northern Italy), but I would be prepared to pop them in and out.....
....unlike most cherished motorcycles (except Hobot's)....off roading vehicles are abused by their very nature....lots of water mud and grit...the issue does seem to start with corrosion, and even with segments of the friction material set into the metal backing it can happen as after the pad has detached the 'posts' can sheer off.
When you describe the source, dissimilarity, mileage and years since you acquired them there are several 'warnings'.......I mention this ony to deter others taking unecessary risks with braking, its not a personal hit.
Brake pads off eBay!.....were they what they were supposed to be, or fake? Not sure exactly how to avoid this when you want safety related stuff, but a supplier with a good reputation must be preferable....online or not....
Were they the right compound for your application.....race pads and other uprated pads are rarely good for road bikes except crutch rockets and mountain touring...take too much time to become effective.....
Dissimilar material?, if you could see that difference when you fitted them you would have been advised not to fit them, at the very least they will wear at different rates....probably reducing the life of one side of the disc whilst they do it and potentially grabbing.
It is amazing you used them for 25,000 but US highway riding needn't be hard on brakes, unlikely you would have achieved half of that around here.....maybe you will consider changing them more on spec in the future.....even if they only look half worn....
Ferodo Platimum are a good road pad, I use them in the rear of a race bike where they get very little use but they will work from cold when needed!, don't use any of their race compounds...see above...to hard....and that won't be obvious to feel if you are using a smaller pistoned master cylinder....but they still wont stop that well when cold..
"hobot" I'm in a bit of exploration to have the brake pad back plates relined with material that's more compatible with the more aggressive wave rotors surfaces fitted to Peel so any pointers at shops doing this appreciated
Product liability insurance rules that one out Brakes are considered safety critical and only the commercial manufactures will warrant product should a problem occur
so any one willing to bond material on to pad backings would leave themselves wide open to the no win no fee vultures
the range of pad material commercially available for Norton is very limited as the stock calliper was only used on Commando
Ferodo / EBC / and non branded Taiwan are currently available but they do not offer a race compound material for this application
using the AP race calliper would be a better option as race pads / sintered are commercially available
Product liability insurance rules that one out Brakes are considered safety critical and only the commercial manufactures will warrant product should a problem occur
so any one willing to bond material on to pad backings would leave themselves wide open to the no win no fee vultures
the range of pad material commercially available for Norton is very limited as the stock calliper was only used on Commando
Ferodo / EBC / and non branded Taiwan are currently available but they do not offer a race compound material for this application
using the AP race calliper would be a better option as race pads / sintered are commercially available
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I had a Dunlop sintered pad where the pad stuck to the disc from overnight rust and it left 2 prongs only on the pad backing pad and not much braking on the front. This was 25 years ago and went back to conventional pads, the bronze sintered pads were supposed to be better in the wet and I rode in all weathers, perversely leaving the bike out in the rain killed the pads.
New Ferodo platinums fitted. Can't wait to see how they bed in and work. For all the mileage the originals had done they were still only 1/3 worn at 4.5mm left. New Ferodos are 6mm. As they were working so well I saw no reason to change them, after all they were hardly worn out. I'm certainly aware of NOT letting brakes go to the end as witnessed by the car brakes I replace which come to me regularly on the backing and screeching! What does that warning light on the dash mean? Most people see to think its low fluid and assume its a faulty warning when they find the fluid level is OK. I should have known something was about to happen when the side stand spring failed before the ride.
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Ok Kiwi I see your point but may still find a willing supplier I could sign off non-liability agreement with. The wave rotors are full of edges swept over pads and a tough rotor alloy-texture so they recommend metallic or silica embedded material so may wear down Norton pads faster. On the other hand Peel is so freaking fast and handy into turns brakes don't really work to slow up any in time just to use on to change lean or spin/skip out > direction of CoG flight- to save a mistake from not going in faster to control better. Thinking to drill a hole or 3 through Peel's pads to see what happens. May turn her brake into a whistle.
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