Crappy featherbed frames......

I am sure a lot of you have seen repro featherbed frames like this for sale in the last few years:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/norton-featherb ... es&vxp=mtr

A lot of you also may have read some recent articles in the NOC Roadholder magazine written by Ken Sprayson about what he and Reynolds and Norton went through to get a featherbed road frame that did not crack, bend and/or fail in use.

Notice the frame in this Ebay auction is missing a rear shock mount, has only tacks holding the rear swingarm gussets on, has no gusset reinforcing the headstock etc..

I would not hit a dog in the ass with this frame or recommend anyone buy it unless they know a whole lot about who made it, what sort of steel tubing and jig and dimensions they used.

Whoever bought this frame would have to have a jig to make featherbed frames anyway to hold it while they were doing the extensive finish welding on it and the various parts they would have to make that are missing. If they have to go to that much work they may as well research things and make their own entire frame from scratch.

To me this fall just short of being a scam, offering this POS for sale along with a pile of parts, some of which are not even Norton.

Good luck to whoever gets suckered into buying this.

Try this link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/norton-featherb ... es&vxp=mtr

Time Warp said:

Try this link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/norton-featherb ... es&vxp=mtr

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it looks like a homemade frame :!:

It’s buyer beware, or there would not be returns not accepted. :cry:

Thanks time warp, I did have the wrong link up there.

I had purchased one of those frames for a project I was going to build.
He supplies them bare, or with the plates and shock mounts installed, your choice. They are very well built.
You can specify what head tube and angle you want also. The tubing is a little thicker than the original frames.
He goes by welfarerecords on ebay. Has sold many frames, with many happy customers.

I wouldn't jump right in and call something crappy just because it was made by an individual not a corporation.

Have you purchased one of these frames, and built a bike from it, and then had a problem with the frame, I suspect not.

Bernhard said:

Time Warp said:

Try this link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/norton-featherb ... es&vxp=mtr

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it looks like a homemade frame :!:

It’s buyer beware, or there would not be returns not accepted. :cry:

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I asked vendor if it was a homemade frame, this was his reply;
"No it is not. I believe it was made in the mid west,frame crafters or a similar company.it had the swingarm plates and shock supports separate, The swingarm is original Norton.
- marka1373"

Well it didn't, except the swing arm, come from the Norton factory :!: :!:

buyer beware, :!:

I seriously doubt it is a Framecrafters unit.

Looks to me like one made by "billyfly" who is on many forums and has sold many of them, as stated.

To my knowledge, there are no negative reports from actual users, and I follow most of the forums he's on.

"Buyer Beware" still applies, due to the fact that an unknowing buyer may not realize how much work needs to be done before the frame is nominally useable.

bwolfie said:

I had purchased one of those frames for a project I was going to build.
Have you purchased one of these frames, and built a bike from it, and then had a problem with the frame, I suspect not.

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And I guess you did not either huh?

It is a legitimate subject questioning the source and quality of aftermarket Norton parts and making sure they are not represented to the public, including the stuff you make and sell "bwolfie".

A guy a few hours away from me bought a Norton frame made by another individual and when he tried racing it it cracked up and fell apart, he ended up making his own which has held up much better.

Most custom Norton "builds" these days will not see many miles period, let along any hard riding or race-track use. They are pretty looking trinkets hipsters and wannabees hang on their egos like Christmas-tree ornaments, appearance being all important over function.

There is more than one guy in the USA welding up "featherbed frames" and trying to sell them. There is such a thing as a Certified Welder , certified welding rod, tubing and experienced engineers.

I would suspect that most people throwing together Norton frames and other parts these days have little or no credentials. So if someone KILLS themselves on a highway or race-track because one of these Pieces of Shit falls apart while they are going through a turn at 100mph what then?

That is all I am trying to do here is offer some perspective about what went into the original featherbed frames, designed and built by and with real engineers and research, and someone welding up something that merely LOOKS like a featherbed Norton frame.

I have welding rod here that has a certificate for it's metallurgy and quality for use in aircraft welds, it was a lot of money per pound. Most people don't know that when you join steel with copper-plated wire or rod that it makes a weak weld that is not acceptable in the aircraft industry. Most people don't know much of anything for that matter about what they are doing.

I will buy a frame from someone who has built one before and raced it or rode it for years and who knows what they are doing when selecting tubing, welding rods and who has had a career in fabricating. I will not buy a frame from some bored upper-class hobbyist who has bought himself a pile of tools and has jumped into making pretty-looking things for dummies to build ornaments out of.

This is a topic that I've thought a lot about, and I'm happy to see that it's been mentioned here on the forum. For starters, I personally think it's pretty lame to even see replica featherbed frames being made. I'm a bit of a purist, so to me, a replica frame isn't very cool. But, if one was to need / buy a replica frame, I'd recommend that they do so from a reputable source. We all know the firms that are making such frames and that they're being raced and ridden with great success. A legitimate replica frame isn't cheap, and that's what brings us to this kind of garbage being made. A featherbed looking frame being home made more or less by someone that's bending tube and welding it together. Often times being sold in this incomplete form with welds that are unfinished etc.

I suppose at the end of the day, I just don't get it. I would never buy a frame such as this. The Nortons that I build / restore, are ridden regularly, and I couldn't even imagine putting the time and money into building a motorcycle, using a frame such as this, and then going out and trusting my life on it. For what? To save a few bucks? No thanks.

Genuine featherbed frames and project bikes pop up for sale often enough and don't cost much more than this garbage. And as Beng mentions, a genuine frame would have been properly built with material and welding that's actually got design and engineering built into it. The Norton featherbed frame went through many years of development, racing and production bikes. And is proven.

Let's put it this way: I wouldn't even trust myself to make a featherbed frame from scratch. Even if it was my own personal project. Bending tubing and welding everything properly isn't something to take lightly. And certainly not something to trust your life on. Much less make a frame and sell it, with the hopes that the new buyer won't kill themselves on it. Again, No thanks. I think part of this is the "American" mentality of building something custom. Lots of custom bikes these days are built with no intention of ever being ridden. All for the sake of being "custom".

To each it's own I suppose. Buyer beware etc etc.
I know that everyone has their own opinions of these things, and I certainly have mine as well. If you're one of the guys that's ok with these types of frames, I'm not knocking you. I'd just say to be careful. It's your life on the line. And there's no sense in us all killing ourselves off riding these things. Then there'd be nobody left on the forum....

Nice to see these topics being brought up and discussed. Even if it's not the most popular of things, it sure is nice for an honest and open discussion of the topic.

There is one guy here in Australia who makes a decent copy of a manx frame, his price is $2500. you can usually tell a replica by the top bend above the oil tank. On the genuine item the radius changes. Even so, for $900, it might be worth reworking the frame on the photo, however I would never use a slimline frame anyway. It is like fitting a bathtub rear guard of a 1957 Triumph to a good bike.

acotrel said:

There is one guy here in Australia who makes a decent copy of a manx frame, his price is $2500. you can usually tell a replica by the top bend above the oil tank. On the genuine item the radius changes. Even so, for $900, it might be worth reworking the frame on the photo, however I would never use a slimline frame anyway. It is like fitting a bathtub rear guard of a 1957 Triumph to a good bike.

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What's wrong with the slimline frames? Are the widelines better? I prefer the look of the slimline particularly the curved rear frame/shock structure as opposed to the straight tube on the widelines.
Also, I might be a bit ill in the head but I also love those bathtub triumphs.

Caveat Emptor of course. BUT........
in the case of these frames, my thoughts are:
If you think that it is sub par ,
If it won't suit your project ,
DON'T BUY IT!

I bet there are some guys out there, even some "certified" welders that
this type of frame would be perfect for, Not at all a crap item to them.

People require different things - different strokes and all of that.

I have no desire to own a featherbed, but if I did.... I know I could make that frame work.

Well to a hammer everything looks like a nail. To an engineer all
they see, well , they see it as an engineer does. Customs arent my
cup of tea but I think most everyone would agree they are simply
sculpture, rolling sculpture maybe, but for the looking not the riding
experience. Just riding it a few miles to the local would mean a lot
of cleaning and polishing directly thereafter.
So go easy on those who wish to look or polish rather than ride. We
arent all doing corners at 100 or administering Hobotian punishment
on the way up the drive.
Careful eye for non factory frames etc? Yes of course. Same with
your tires!

Just because it's "factory", doesn't guarantee that it's superior.

Remember these frames?

Designed by a guy with "Dr." in front of his name and rubber stamped by engineers.
with those type of credentials behind it.....
who would have ever thought that the steering head would detach itself from the rest of the bike.

also,
Didn't the old garden gate frames have a propensity for cracking down near the tranny mounts?

I have actually heard about weld certification as I am qualified as a welding inspector amongst many other things. Weld certification involves making test pieces that represent consumables, construction materials and processes , then testing them to destruction in a ternsile testing machine, also doing a microsection examination. If you were going t o make thousands of frames, you would do it. I'd point out that Seeley frames are made out of chrome moly tube and 'welded' using tobin bronze with in-line flux, and I believe the manx frames were made this way. It is possible t o build a good frame using TIG, however the head stock is usually stronger material than the tube, so has more potential to crack when welding. In the old days in Australia plenty of frames were made out of mild steel and brazed together - I've never seen a crash where the frame failed. I saw one where the fork yokes had been remade out of aluminium casting without increasing the section. And I saw a friend killed at Bathurst when the discs on his RG500 suzuki exploded off the bike - had been made out of grey cast iron. - Never seen a frame failure cause a crash, even though many have developed cracked tubes. You will note that the Maxton Yamaha that Charlie Williams used to win the IOMTT had a Schraeder valve fitted so the frame could be pressurised - if it did not hiss his team knew to search for cracks.

@Mark
I have most of a spare motor, and a spare gearbox. I looked at building a bike using the standard commando frame. I would not go there , - it is a disgrace and many were made in Italy, and many cracked. The Garden gate inter frames cracked where the gearbox is mounted at the top - a really stupid design - another disgrace. I worked in many engineering areas as a scientist over forty years. I don't trust anyone with 'Dr' in front of their name, particularly if they are engineers. In Australia, 'The system runs on bullshit' - and we inherited the British system.
And isolastics ?- what a bloody joke ?

Just as a matter of interest, what were Dr Stefan Bauer's qualifications ? Did he ever road race a motorcycle ? Peter Williams was very good, but one of his design attempts was absolutely ridiculous, you simply would not do it. I'm talking about the one where he fitted the swing arm to the engine plates to get the bike narrower. I suggest he had a bee in his bonnet because that is how the isolastics are set up on the standard commando. It is slightly better because the sideplay is limited by shimming, but the plates still must FLEX . You can make excuses based on Norton's limited race budget, but this stuff was critical to the success or failure of their production models. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely love commandos, but 'some things are so bad that they are good' - I love women too !

acotrel said:

I'd point out that Seeley frames are made out of chrome moly tube and 'welded' using tobin bronze with in-line flux, and I believe the manx frames were made this way.

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Tobin bronze is a brass "low strength copper-zinc alloy welding alloy", intended for braze welding brasses, bronzes and copper alloys and mild steel.
http://www.dynaweld.com.au/680/tig-gas- ... -rods.html

So you'd better find the correct name for what frames are welded with.
Manx frames certainly didn't use it, they used SiF Bronze rod, oxy-welded.
Brass flows into narrow joints by capillary action, SiF Bronze can be built up into fillets - as can be seen on manx frame joints.

And, we find you on other forums spreading this mis-information.....

'And, we find you on other forums spreading this mis-information.....'

The point is the frames are brazed, NOT WELDED. Whether it is SiF Bronze or Tobin Bronze is pretty much irrelevant. What do you think the in-line flux is used for with Tobin bronze ? The reason most of the old frames were brazed has to do with the need for much closer fit-up if the tubes are to be welded. You know w hat you can do with your 'misinformation', a little knowledge is dangerous, and that's what you have.

Manx frames were NOT brazed, they were Sifbronze welded.
HUGE difference.

No featherbed frames were brazed.

The old lugged frames WERE brazed, in a brazing oven.
After being all pinned together.
Totally different technology.

Welding inspector ?? Sheeesh....

Rohan said:

Manx frames were NOT brazed, they were Sifbronze welded.
HUGE difference.

No featherbed frames were brazed.

The old lugged frames WERE brazed, in a brazing oven.
After being all pinned together.
Totally different technology.

Welding inspector ?? Sheeesh....

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Those technologies haven't been used in mass production for decades.
I hardly expect a modern inspector to stay current on a non used practice.

As an A&P I worked on turbine engines exclusivity.
My license allows me to maintain radial engines, of which we were barely taught. A brief discussion of construction, magneto's, supercharging, turbocharging and carbs.
It also allows me to work with dope and fabric, again this was optional teaching.

No one person would be able to have complete knowledge of every method ever used in any field.