Commando Big End Bolts - Tested!

Commando Big End bolts 06-6486 independently tested :-
Andover Norton v Norvill v Wassell bolts

Link to Test certificate :-
http://www.totalbikebits.com/new-products/

I'm certainly no expert on material hardness or a Rockwell engineer, but i understand the basics of tensile strength.

And from Andover's website :-
http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/Pirate Parts.htm

"To re-iterate, these pirate bolts do not have the tensile strength required for this application, and should not be used"

I can only assume that Andover are referring to their own bolts! Unless i've read the Test certificate wrong! :?:
A more educated explanation of the results would be appreciated!

As I understand it the test was the result of warranty claim, caused by failure in service of the supposedly super-strong pattern bolts, resulting in the major blow-up one should expect in that case.......

The question remains what exactly was tested. I suspect it was just the shaft of the bolt, not the thread- which on the bolts I bought as samples were cut, not rolled as they should be-, or the heads, which again were cut from billet, not formed by forging.

I personally am not an expert on metalurgy, but I know that my own tests of the genuine Andover Norton big end bolts in practise, on road AND TRACK in engines that were about 40-50% more powerful than any production Commando engine we had on the testbed in the last 20-odd years, have yet to show a breakage.

When did you last see the dealer who sells these pattern big-end bolts aboard a Commando racebike testing his stuff on the track and risking his neck in the process? I last raced in September.

Joe Seifert/Andover Norton

Based on that limited info the Wassell's look better but a such a small sample means the results need to be interpreted with caution. Both materials are over 1000Mpa which is excellent material. If you were to test a few more you may see a reverse in the results purely as both parties are limited to what the supplier sends them and that variance is normal even with most material standard specifications beofre any further processing.

To be fair, I don't think Andover ever claimed the pirate bolts they show on their site were from Wassell. Would be nice to know who they were from. Certainly could have been from Wassell. Wassell could easily have changed suppliers and improved the quality of the bolts after selling junk. Wouldn't be the first time.

I had mixed results from Wassell pattern parts a couple decades ago. Maybe they are better now, or maybe they are not. They sourced their parts from a variety of suppliers, and the quality varied significantly. You never knew if the part you were getting from them was going to be one of the good ones or one of the really bad ones! I saw some really bad camshafts from them back in the '80s. The lobes wore almost immediately. I had them tested locally, and they were way too soft. That's the problem with outsourcing parts. You really have to know your suppliers, be very careful with how you specify parts, and do your own quality assurance checks. It's not like suppliers like Wassell (and Andover) have much choice about outsourcing. If you want to stock a wide assortment of bits, you can't make them all in-house. The difference is in how well you monitor your suppliers. A friend of mine (who also races a Norton) was in charge of setting up a facility in China to manufacture Hass machine tools for local sale. He said they had to have their own engineers on-site full time to get any sort of quality control. Hass finally threw in the towel and scrapped their plans to manufacture in China and India. It's clearly possible to get very high quality production out of China, but it seems to require a major presence on-site that is too much for a small business to manage. Haas is the largest CNC machine tool manufacturer in the Western world, and they couldn't make it work.

Ken

Hey Ken, do ya think Ms Peel rod bolts are up to snuff? I don't remember if I cryo'd them or not.

lcrken said:

To be fair, I don't think Andover ever claimed the pirate bolts they show on their site were from Wassell. Would be nice to know who they were from. Certainly could have been from Wassell. Wassell could easily have changed suppliers and improved the quality of the bolts after selling junk. Wouldn't be the first time.

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That's very true, although just looking at the Andover 'Pirate Parts' page as previously linked :-

Conrods - that looks like the R&R rod, distributed by Wassell UK.
Gears - Wassell
Fork Stanchions - er Wassell/Emgo i presume.
AMC Gearchange lever - Wassell
Peashooter Silencer - Wassell/Emgo
Stainless Steel Mudguards - Wassell, as opposed to Genuine Norton mudguards made by Parafanghi in Italy!

Certainly not certain to be Wassell bolts that AN is slamming, but if i was a betting man...... :?

Good point. You're probably right. I certainly wouldn't take the other side of that bet.

Ken

Precisely why, when I rebuilt my bud's T140 I re-used the existing bolts. The one's sold to him at the local shop just didn't impress me with quality, and I couldn't convince myself they were anything OTHER thank knock off rubbish.

To clear it up:
Conrod- bought from Wassell;
Gears- leftovers from the 1980s, at the time distributed by "old" Wassell according to the stickers on the boxes. To the best of my knowledge, and to be fair, Wassell don't do gears for Nortons these days and haven't done for many years.
I have about 5-10 sets of these gears in my "quarantine" corner from buying up dealer's stocks, would only use them as paperweights;
Fork stanchions- we only show our Genuine stanchion, not the imitations. I have seen- and been less than impressed- with products from China and the UK. Both aren't made from the correct material and/or have the correct finish, but to the layman they will look like any other fork stanchion.
Swinging arm spindle and bushes- bought from an Indian supplier, but your guess is as good as mine who sells these as a "part fitting a Norton Commando".
Gearchange lever- sourced from the same Indian supplier, but again- see above.
Peashooter silencer- pictured is one of our Genuine ones. The main difference is gauge of the body and the internal construction, that, unfortunately, I am not good enough a photographer to show.
Air filter- bought from an English wholesaler (not Wassell!), and that is how it looked, still in the bag, a year later.
Stainless Steel mudguard- comes from India, sourced through a British wholesaler. Yes, ours come from Italy, as did the original stainless ones as far as I know. And most of the original Commando frames, from Verlicchi, whilst our new Commando frames we sell as spare parts are made in the UK.

Rest asured you can buy- or should I say, you will be sold, whether you like it or not?- all the above sub-standard beauties from "leading Norton specialists", more often than not those who yell the loudest- against their own better knowledge- that 99% of their parts come from England.
Not even Andover Norton could truthfully claim that, even though the vast majority of our parts is made in the Midlands around Birmingham.

ZFD wrote,

all the above sub-standard beauties from "leading Norton specialists"

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That just reinforces my embargo to never buy off them again. Why am I not surprised?

Reggie said:

ZFD wrote,

all the above sub-standard beauties from "leading Norton specialists"

Click to expand...

That just reinforces my embargo to never buy off them again. Why am I not surprised?

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Too true.....they sell "Genuine Commando" and "genuine Norvil" parts, (made by themselves) but most definitely not genuine "Norton" parts....and I wouldn't have their "Norvil" parts either, the few that I did buy years ago went straight in the bin as useless. No point wasting time haggling for a replacement, as it would be equally useless, and a "refund" only meant a credit note, where you had to buy more crap from them!

Stick to a trustworthy dealer like Mick Hemmings and you can't go wrong

ZFD said:

To clear it up:
Conrod- bought from Wassell;

Not even Andover Norton could truthfully claim that, even though the vast majority of our parts is made in the Midlands around Birmingham.

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So, the Conrods are R&R then. Why don't you just state that in the first place? I can only assume that you wouldn't want a solicitors letter landing on your door mat.... very wise i think.

You are comparing 2012 production technology with technology from decades ago.
Top performance fuel engines use billet crankshafts these days, and not forged!

To state in a public domain that you believe in your products, is absolutely fine, but to slam other companies 'pirate' parts is both misleading and there to be shot at. The Norton factory closed a long time ago.

Also no mention of the 'pirate' bolt itself? Who's bolt are you referring to?

Ironically, as i understand it, Wassell actually supply Norton Motors Group. Are these Genuine Norton parts?

Seeley920 said:

Too true.....they sell "Genuine Commando" and "genuine Norvil" parts, (made by themselves) but most definitely not genuine "Norton" parts....and I wouldn't have their "Norvil" parts either, Stick to a trustworthy dealer like Mick Hemmings and you can't go wrong

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Mick Hemmings certainly is a trustworthy a reputable dealer.. agreed!

But...

The Norton factory closed down years ago. "Genuine Commando" or "Genuine Norvil".... lol. Yes, there still might be genuine old stock lying about, but the vast majority of parts supplied today are aftermarket parts.
The same applies to Lucas,Amal,Triumph Meriden etc etc

The factorys closed down = genuine parts are not always available.

BA10BOON said:

Seeley920 said:

Too true.....they sell "Genuine Commando" and "genuine Norvil" parts, (made by themselves) but most definitely not genuine "Norton" parts....and I wouldn't have their "Norvil" parts either, Stick to a trustworthy dealer like Mick Hemmings and you can't go wrong

Click to expand...

Mick Hemmings certainly is a trustworthy a reputable dealer.. agreed!

But...

The Norton factory closed down years ago. "Genuine Commando" or "Genuine Norvil".... lol. Yes, there still might be genuine old stock lying about, but the vast majority of parts supplied today are aftermarket parts.
The same applies to Lucas,Amal,Triumph Meriden etc etc

The factorys closed down = genuine parts are not always available.

Click to expand...

Except with Norton. You can purchase non-aftermarket, non-pattern parts. Consider yourself very lucky.