Combat sans head gasket?

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Hard to say which is more leak prone the cylinder base or the head seam.
Anywho I would like to try Trixie w/o a head gasket, just Hylomar, so seek advise and reviewing on all the issues.

Quench gap, piston/valve clash, pushrod length for rocker centering and what ever else I don't yet know, ugh. Prefer to leave base plate out too of course, but not totally against that if significant labor saver on just a ordinary non red lined Cdo.
 
hobot said:
Hard to say which is more leak prone the cylinder base or the head seam.
Anywho I would like to try Trixie w/o a head gasket, just Hylomar, so seek advise and reviewing on all the issues.

Quench gap, piston/valve clash, pushrod length for rocker centering and what ever else I don't yet know, ugh. Prefer to leave base plate out too of course, but not totally against that if significant labor saver on just a ordinary non red lined Cdo.

My guess is that the copper head gasket allows some creep due to the thermo-expansion differences between the aluminum head and the iron barrel. But it's just a guess. There are engines that omit the head gasket (my Bultacos don't have them) but I don't know of any 4 strokes ones that don't have them.

I can't wait to see when the experts chime in.
 
EVEN IF you could get it to seal up the compression would be some where in the 11-1 range so ANY pump gas would be out of the question

hobot said:
I would like to try Trixie w/o a head gasket, just Hylomar, so seek advise and reviewing on all the issues.

Quench gap, piston/valve clash, pushrod length for rocker centering and what ever else I don't yet know, ugh. Prefer to leave base plate out too of course, but not totally against that if significant labor saver on just a ordinary non red lined Cdo.
 
the old bevel drive ducks, 2 valve rubber duckies and air cooled VW's are 3 just off the top :mrgreen:

swooshdave said:
I don't know of any 4 strokes ones that don't have them.

I can't wait to see when the experts chime in.
 
Steve, no doubt you have considered every option.

Just my 2 cents, having tried to seal with copper gaskets without success, I would try again with just a new flame ring and a little appropriate goo.

I take it this is not working for you at all as you have stated you are getting smoke coming out between the barrels and the head?

And you have running fairly new valve guides carefully fitted and your head/barrels are perfectly flat for the seal?
 
Yes swisheroo, thermal expansion differences for sure but also these things also just plain flap and shake and shift on their seams even mildly treated, but, ugh, just one kicking up of heels or long haul no let up so no re-torquinh and the sealing turmoil begins again. I hear the stories of oil tight wonders so trying to match em.

11+ CR stayed tight in my ole P!! at ridiculous young greenhorn rpm, but was special constructed and assembled engine, not my fumbling. I suspect Trix could get away with 87 oct. d/t the 2S cam over lap and maybe almost kissing squish gap, what little there is in Combats. Again I'm pretty kind to Trixie and have to use 87 routinely. Tune and throttle hand can match or beat 'puterized retard and fuel injection compensation, sheeze. Trix is gal next door, ok for a good time but not taking on a Ninja death squadron single handed, in the dark, in the rain, off road, that's Ms Peel's task, sheeze.


CHO Head was redone last year by Micheal Starky of British Toys in NC, a life long picky tricky crowd pleader and solution worker. He also did Peels current head with the bronze spacers instead of spring to center rockers over Kenny Dreer's valve kit with new seats cut right. So yes I've considered guides and seals but theres oil on my LH side cover and head seam, ugh, prior it was on R side, not much last rides, so must 1st assume head gasket and maybe even gas jet grooving from chamber to tunnels. No smoke shoots out head, been there done that with flames too on Trixie in '06.

Simplest way out would be a good flamering, now I know what to ask for, smear of copper coat or metallic paint plus some type of good thread around the tunnels and hole drain. Silk or cotton as the synthetics melt and contract in beads leaving gaps or flatens out and doesn't rebound so leaves a weak gap in sealant that eventually fails.

Next simplest would be base plate to make up geometry of missing gasket. Reasoning is less pressure to resist at base, even is about as much shifting and twisting and gapping as head. I'm a bit piffed with even Hylomar at this point but less so that gray thick stuff that acts more like starch when compressed, ie: kinda solidifies and fractures. The tary stuff seems to get too soft with heat then stirred to flow away by the vibes.

Hardest would be doing it like Peel, no base plate or gasket, then diddle the pushrods shorter and relieve pistons for valves and head for pistons. Closer clamp force, no crush material and less thermal shear/shifting plus half the planar leak surfaces with better heat flow.

If turns out to be the head, then i hit a bit of quandary. Spare small port head on hand was the key ingredient in past Ms Peels sport bike hunting hobby. Spare bigger carb and dialed in 2-1 header/megaphone just sitting around too. Must resist as neither me nor Trixie is up for that sort of spunk w/o special preps to handle it. Trixie is my Gulf Coast low octane bone stock tramp.

I would not be the 1st to go naided head on a Norton. hm.
 
Jim has some of these gaskets linked below that are the ultimate in minimalist - but like bill says your no longer going to be able to run on anything but real gas, and from the looks of your surroundings hobot i suspect a length of garden hose and a pail are your stand equipment fueling station :mrgreen: :shock:

http://jsmotorsport.com/part_pop_ring.asp
 
swooshdave said:
hobot said:
Hard to say which is more leak prone the cylinder base or the head seam.
Anywho I would like to try Trixie w/o a head gasket, just Hylomar, so seek advise and reviewing on all the issues.

Quench gap, piston/valve clash, pushrod length for rocker centering and what ever else I don't yet know, ugh. Prefer to leave base plate out too of course, but not totally against that if significant labor saver on just a ordinary non red lined Cdo.

My guess is that the copper head gasket allows some creep due to the thermo-expansion differences between the aluminum head and the iron barrel. But it's just a guess. There are engines that omit the head gasket (my Bultacos don't have them) but I don't know of any 4 strokes ones that don't have them.

I can't wait to see when the experts chime in.

actually i can't wait for the un-experts to chime in.. :roll: ........ (not that i consider myself an expert by any degree mind you) :mrgreen:
 
The Vincent engine doesnt use a head gasket. Lap the surfaces with medium then fine lapping compound and thats it.

Glen
 
Alrighty encouraging example with the Vincent, then would only need a base plate and never another head gasket, just spray paint, nip up and fly, smokeless.

Hehe, real hillbilly's get their home fuel from over head tanks, out gas station like hoses and handles with water trap and filter inline and not spill a drop or heff a pail. Home service is 91 octane no booze ag gas in bulk price. Still working on $1.90/gal stuff but better buy more before it hits $4.00.

Combat sans head gasket?
 
I ran a Triumph with no head gasket for a number of years. It worked well. I had the head and barrel lapped flat at the hydraulic shop on their lapping table.
 
My late Matchless scrambler has the head lapped to the barrel and I use aluminum paint on both surfaces after lapping. However the cylinder barrel has a spigot which fits into a recess in the combustion chamber. This keeps the hot gases from coming out across the lapped surface. The convoluted pathway soon blocks itself off with carbon. I get good sealing and have not had a problem. Compression is only 8.7:1.

On the combat Norton I use an Andover flame-ring gasket. I spray both sides (light coating) with Permatex copper Spray-a-Gasket. http://www.permatex.com/products/automo ... ealant.htm
I let it get a little tacky first so it doesn't get all over. This stuff does not really stick the gasket down - you can just lift it off when the head is removed. I use 1/4" stick-on dots on both sides over the oil drain hole in the gasket and peel them off before putting the gasket down. This keeps any spray away from the drain hole.

Ain't never had a problem with a blown head gasket although I also do the religious retorquing routine. Tighten in 3 steps, then again after first fire-up, then 50 mi, then 200 mi and 500 miles.
 
thx Ludwig - that may be the best post ever- hobot on a banana diet - haha hahaha - have to clean my coffee off my screen

but my question are goat pictures OK to post?? :mrgreen:
 
Appreciate the examples of running w/o a gasket on top, will have to give it a try and who knows it might set a trend.
ludwig this post is about my yellow factory Combat not my multi colored & talented Ms Peel, which would look good in yellar too.
I've made do with paper and soap and pepper to keep a motor vehicle going so will keep your advice in mind, just don't expect me to shake your soiled hand.

Combat sans head gasket?
 
You might be able to run with no gaskets anywhere, depending upon the standards of machining used (not to discount goat shit). I read that modern F! engines use no gaskets. I quite doubt anyone would go to the time and expense to achieve those standards for a Norton. But then the lad from Arkansas may prove me wrong.
 
My screen is 8 ft away so coffee and beer free. Banana is good stuff to ease ones bowels and lube engines in a pinch. But I'm a country boy so can't fool me about no fiberous goat pellets, no sir - I'd go with duck shit.

You might be able to run with no gaskets anywhere, depending upon the standards of machining used (not to discount goat shit). I read that modern F! engines use no gaskets. I quite doubt anyone would go to the time and expense to achieve those standards for a Norton. But then the lad from Arkansas may prove me wrong.

Trixie stays factory, so like ole Clinton, it not cheating just leaving stuff out. Ms Peel got rid of all tanny and engine gaskets in ''04 but for a flamering and silly con rocker covers. Current Peel engine will use .020" copper top to keep squish in reason and seal on sleeve lip Maney leaves a bit proud for this. In the other post Jim Comstock says safe to try mechanically, after he listed his failed long term sealings methods.

Must hunt up 100% cotton or silk thread then decide to try Hylomar or copper coat or Al spray paint, ugh, 1st. Might work out with just the standard compression lowering base plate that CR goes up with more squish while rocker contracts center on stems better. Oh yeah and not smoke or mess a while longer.

Ok, some of us country boys do find certain goats attractive.
Combat sans head gasket?
 
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