carbide tipped lifters

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74ok

74ok

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Just posting some info from the aviation world where there have been ongoing lifter/cam issues ..to this day.

That led to someone coming up with carbide tipped lifters, that i've mostly only heard good things about where used.

http://www.dukeflyers.org/DFA-11/download.php?f=helpful_hints_compendium.pdf

Metallurgy of camshaft & lifters Posted by mark seader on 03/05/03

Four months ago, myself and Tom Ehresman decided to investigate the claim of "old production" camshaft/lifters, vs "current production" earn/lifter metal quality.

The current thinking was that older production cams/lifters were surviving to TBO, while the current production was inferior by virtue of metal quality or design. We contracted with a Dr. George Krauss, ScD., P.E. a professor from the metallurgical department at the Colo School of Mines in Golden Colo.

He took on the project to determine if there was a difference between and old cam/lifter set that went beyond TBO (overhauled 11 years ago) and a recent 300 hr earn/lifter set that had failed.

We received the report 2-28-03. Both sets of camshaft/lifters were sectioned, polished, metallographically prepared, and inspected using scanning electron microscope to 5000X, and chemical analysis of selected areas of the microstructure performed by energy dispersive spectroscopy.

Dr. Krauss sent sections of the camshaft lobes and lifters to Colorado Metallurgical Services, Denver CO., for chemical analysis. I will quote the pertinent sentences from his summary. "The results show that the materials of construction ofthe two sets of components were very Similar, both in chemistry and microstructure" - - This report is very detailed and quite technical (17 pages) with photo's, graphs, chemical analysis etc.,

-- Tom had asked Dr. Krauss "is there anything you see that would account for the failure in the newer production cam/lifter set? He stated "No. The two alloys are so similar that nothing I've seen would account for the failure" -- bottom line, it's not the metal or construction. Feel free to call if you have any questions. Mark Seader. SECTION C-7a
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Carbide is unsuitable for this job as they are even more brittle than the original setup.
 
I have a set of Joe Schumacher's ceramic base lifters in my 440 Dodge, .386" lobe lift and something like .040"/10* velocity on the ramps. 130# on the seat, 380# on the nose. At about 25,000 miles, the cam lobes look barely used. So there are answers, but they're not always easy answers.
 
pressureangle said:
I have a set of Joe Schumacher's ceramic base lifters in my 440 Dodge, .386" lobe lift and something like .040"/10* velocity on the ramps. 130# on the seat, 380# on the nose. At about 25,000 miles, the cam lobes look barely used. So there are answers, but they're not always easy answers.
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Mmmmmmm, got me thinking where is that image printed on this website of the Norton 500 barrel with rollers. (Norton Domiracer 500)
 
Yes I'm quite aware of that, as it is the satellite tips employed now are just the right of hardness, with carbide more than likely they will knock out your camshaft forcing you into an engine strip down.
 
Newman cams seem to have some experience

https://www.burtonpower.com/newman-cams-follower-set-ford-sohc-pinto-long-pad-dncf5001p.html

Modified with carbide inserted pads. For use with all Newman Phase 4 & 5 cams.
Ford SOHC Pinto
Application:
  • Ford Capri Mk1/Mk2/Mk3 1.6/2.0 1972-1987
  • Ford Cortina Mk3/Mk4/Mk5 1.6/2.0 1970-1982
  • Ford Escort Mk1 RS2000 2.0 1973-1974
  • Ford Escort Mk2 RS2000 2.0 & Mexico 1.6 1975-1980
  • Ford Granada Mk1 2.0 1973-1977
  • Ford Granada Mk2 1.6/2.0 1977-1985
  • Ford Granada/Scorpio Mk3 1.8/2.0 1985-1989
  • Ford Sierra 1.6/1.8/2.0 1982-1989
  • Ford Transit Mk2/Mk3 1.6/2.0 1978-1994
  • TVR Tamsin 200 2.0
 
Some types of carbide are compatible with stellite weld up cams or cast iron cams -but not stock case hardened cams.

Stay tuned. More soon. Jim
 
The metallurgists results of Jim's recent testing have arrived back from the manufacturer. The tappets used on his old case hardened cam had melted cam attached when viewed under a several hundred thousand pound microscope, but the tappet underlying surface was undamaged - the heat had not even affected the matrix of the material. We believe we know why this happened.
The tappets used on the Chill cast cam were unchanged other than the mechanical damege when the push rod failed. They were compared to a well used 70's set of tappets and the tappets Jim tested were harder and tougher.
 
Here's some history from 2012
http://www.twinandturbine.com/issue/Dec12/files/basic-html/page22.html

http://www.twinandturbine.com/issue/Dec12/mobile/index.html#p=22

Here are some common myths and folklore that are no longer accurate.The most persistent, and expensive, problem faced by Duke owners was no joking matter: cam and lifter scaling in the 380-hp TIO- 541-E1C4 Lycoming.

This issue was originally thought to be caused by everything from infrequent use to inadequate oil filtering and delivery to bad steel.

The camshaft design and manufacturing process had never changed, so focus shifted to the lifters that were manufactured by Eaton. When Eaton moved production to Europe, the problem began and persisted.

After Eaton was unwilling or unable to resolve the issue, two Duke Flyers members, Jerry Burnham and Gary Bongard, took it upon themselves to design and get approval for carbide tipped lifters. Adding engine pre-oilers from Oil-a-matic was the icing on the cake, and the problem was gone.
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some patent info
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/jerry-burnham-of-c-b-aviation

https://patents.justia.com/patent/7530339

additional comments from the first post link
Firewall Forward Overhauls Posted By Dane Scag on 12/31/03

I am compelled to speak up with my experiences. Mark Seader and his company FWF have delivered exceptionally high quality workmanship, with costs quotes and time schedules totally satisfactory. They have done two jobs for me and I am pleased. I have no reservations to recommend their shop for engine overhauls and their clever mods.

It is unfortunate that blame has been placed on other overhaul shops, as well as FWF, for premature failures of valve lifters and cams, when it was not their fault at all. The mass of evidence and the current record of successful solutions have proven their position.
SECTION M-2
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Some comments here with pix
Here is the new camshaft, with oiling holes to prevent dry startup problems. (yes, these seem to last much longer)
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https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-aircraft-piston-engine-oil-stuff#Post2433953

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-aircraft-piston-engine-oil-stuff#Post2434492
Recently in the Duke I installed Carbide faced STC lifters. Even in that Lycoming, which is the TIO541 with the cam below the crankshaft, with older lifters the cams last and lifters don't spall. The newer lifters from Lycoming are junk and if lucky will maybe make 700 hours. The carbide lifters are seeing 3 full TBO overhauls typically.
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I use a VR Wesson Tantung G part off blade on my manual lathe. One of the old super alloys. I prefer it to carbide.

This has got to be one of the biggest jobs done on a small scale. Lots of testing hours
 
84ok said:
Here's some history from 2012


some patent info
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/jerry-burnham-of-c-b-aviation

https://patents.justia.com/patent/7530339

additional comments from the first post link


Some comments here with pix

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-aircraft-piston-engine-oil-stuff#Post2433953

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-aircraft-piston-engine-oil-stuff#Post2434492
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The main problem with carbide, even thought there are hundreds of different grades, is that tappets have to be given a gap when engine is cold, carbide is very hard and at the same time very brittle.
 
Bernhard said:
The main problem with carbide, even thought there are hundreds of different grades, is that tappets have to be given a gap when engine is cold, carbide is very hard and at the same time very brittle.
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That depends on the carbide grade. Carbide can vary anywhere from brittle as glass to quite malleable.
 
I just had a waking dream of little bits of carbide floating/flying about in my motor at any RPM. I'm thoroughly convinced that, although there's room for vast improvement, mine is as good as it needs to be.
 
comnoz said:
That depends on the carbide grade. Carbide can vary anywhere from brittle as glass to quite malleable.
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The main problem is, even if it is quite malleable, it would be useless on the Norton cam followers. (Too soft). I have worked with carbide from carbide tiped machine cutting tools, solid carbide press tools etc. Anyone who has seen the damage incurred from just half a stellite tip broken off a cam follower should not be surprised of the damage that carbide is capable of doing. How do you know Norton never tried carbide tipped followers but rejected them? As I said, the constant pounding from a cold engine with just .005 tho valve clearance is liable on carbide is likely to ruin an engine twice as quickly as Nortons own solution to the hard wearing tappets.
 
Bernhard said:
The main problem is, even if it is quite malleable, it would be useless on the Norton cam followers. (Too soft). I have worked with carbide from carbide tiped machine cutting tools, solid carbide press tools etc. Anyone who has seen the damage incurred from just half a stellite tip broken off a cam follower should not be surprised of the damage that carbide is capable of doing. How do you know Norton never tried carbide tipped followers but rejected them? As I said, the constant pounding from a cold engine with just .005 tho valve clearance is liable on carbide is likely to ruin an engine twice as quickly as Nortons own solution to the hard wearing tappets.
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Well as of yet I have not been able to fracture the carbide facing I am putting on my followers.

I have run them to 9000 rpm on a radical cam with obvious valve float and serious noise for several hours.
 
I used to buy and use TanTung for my work. It is an alloy of Tantalum and Tungsten. Very tough, heavy, and great for extremely high temps.
Jaydee
 
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