Beryllium-Steel Piston Pins

lcrken · Nov 11, 2012

It's a slow Sunday morning, and the discussion on another thread about titanium rods reminded me of this tidbit. Some years ago one of the car manufacturers (my failing memory says Porsche, but not sure) made some piston pins for their race cars using a beryllium pin with a thin steel outer shell. Must have been extremely stiff and very light. Beryllium has close to the same specific strength as titanium, but has something like six times the specific stiffness of any other metal. Just what we need to go with the JS lightweight rod and piston kit, right?

Ken

Hobot · Nov 11, 2012

Here's headlines to scan on this 'miracle' metal.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&scli ... 33&bih=416

Dances with Shrapnel · Nov 11, 2012

Young's modulus for various materials

Titanium (E=18,500,000 psi),
Alloy steel (E=30,000,000 psi),
Beryllium (E=42,000,000 psi) - presumably an alloy of Beyllium

From above, Ti is nearly twice as "springy" as steel and steel is roughly 40% more "springy" as Beyllium

I read where Mercedes was using Aluminum-Beryllium pistons in F1 racing until it was outlawed due to Occupational Health reasons; the new window of opportunity is with Metal Matrix Composits (MMC)

lcrken · Nov 11, 2012

Dances with Shrapnel said:
Young's modulus for various materials

Titanium (E=18,500,000 psi),
Alloy steel (E=30,000,000 psi),
Beryllium (E=42,000,000 psi) - presumably an alloy of Beyllium

From above, Ti is nearly twice as "springy" as steel and steel is roughly 40% more "springy" as Beyllium

I read where Mercedes was using Aluminum-Beryllium pistons in F1 racing until it was outlawed due to Occupational Health reasons; the new window of opportunity is with Metal Matrix Composits (MMC)

Actually, that's the modulus for pure beryllium. The thing that makes it look so good is it's specific stiffness, the elastic modulus divided by density. For 6Al-4V titanium that's 97 (16 Msi divided by 0.165 lb/cu in), but for beryllium it 628 (42 Msi divided by .067 lb/cu in)! Most steels have specific stiffness fo 100, pretty much the same as titanium. Beryllium is a really neat material, but it's way expensive, and there are some serious health hazards about exposure to grinding dust from it.

I looked at one of the aluminum/ceramic MMC products from 3M for pushrod applications. It's really abrasive to machinig, and requires expenisve diamond tools, so I gave it a pass. Smith Brothers made pushrods with it for a short time, but told me they broke too many diamond reamers working it, which drove their cost way out of sight, so they quit. They had much more sophisticated machining facilities than I do, so that convinced me not to try it. The ones they did make were tested in Harley dragsters, and worked great.

Ken

J.A.W. · Nov 11, 2012

Maybe Matt Spencer could arrange to have a job lot made cost effectively for Commando applications by the Sukhoi plant in Russia, where life expectancy issues render occupational exposures moot anyhow?
Come to think of it - how many years of direct unleaded gasoline/true asbestos friction lining [& etc] exposure have we all personally had over the decades?
Let alone riding bloody motorcycles...

Dances with Shrapnel · Nov 11, 2012

@lcrken - Didn't realize the dramatic low specific gravity (density) of Berylllium. I had seen the MMC pushrods more than a decade ago; NASCAR yes, HD Drag bikes - why? The steel shelled/beryllium cored wrist pin application is real interesting - light weight and stiff with a strong durable wear surface shell.

@J.A.W. - Russia is changing. Not what it was +20 years ago yet still a long way to go.

lcrken · Nov 11, 2012

Time flys when you're having fun. It was almost a decade ago that I was looking at the 3M MMC material for pushrods, 2003 to be exact. It was available in 12" lengths of 3/8" tube with .147" wall thickness. I don't recall the price, but it wasn't cheap. To quote their email to me, "These rods have a proven track record in motorcycles with the Harley Davidson racing team". That's all I know about the Harley application.

Ken

acotrel · Nov 12, 2012

On the OHS matter, I seem to remember that beryllium is toxic. It has been used in beryllium-copper applications, and is dangerous to machine without the controlled environment. Using a beryllium/aluminium alloy in pistons in motors might have been outlawed because of the potential to generate air born particulates with might cause lung disease, when the motor is running..

http://materion.com/ResourceCenter/Envi ... tAlloy.pdf

Dances with Shrapnel · Nov 12, 2012

acotrel said:
On the OHS matter, I seem to remember that beryllium is toxic. It has been used in beryllium-copper applications, and is dangerous to machine without the controlled environment. Using a beryllium/aluminium alloy in pistons in motors might have been outlawed because of the potential to generate air born particulates with might cause lung disease, when the motor is running..

http://materion.com/ResourceCenter/Envi ... tAlloy.pdf

Machining where chips/ribbons are generated is generally not a problem; grinding and fine particle creation is a problem without rigorous air controls. Inhalation is bad news; chips in skin is also not good.

I assumed the F1 gouverning body (FIM?) was concerned with the ESH during manufacture of the pistons but exposure while using the pistons is certainly a possibility.

Tintin · Nov 13, 2012

Dances with Shrapnel said:
I assumed the F1 gouverning body (FIM?) was concerned with the ESH during manufacture of the pistons but exposure while using the pistons is certainly a possibility.

No, the purpose of the Beryllium ban was to harm Mercedes who had the Beryllium know how and to favour Ferrari who didn't. Standard FIA practice. :mrgreen:

The technical answer to this was Boron-fibre reinforced steel forgings for wrist-pins.

Tim

Dances with Shrapnel · Nov 13, 2012

Tintin said:
No, the purpose of the Beryllium ban was to harm Mercedes who had the Beryllium know how and to favour Ferrari who didn't. Standard FIA practice. :mrgreen:

The technical answer to this was Boron-fibre reinforced steel forgings for wrist-pins.

Tim

So there's another spin on history, or conspiracy theory, or jesting. Any articles you care to cite to back this up. So why not Aluminum Beryllium pistons today? The only reasons for the ban that I have read about to-date had to do with ESH matters.

So the "technical answer" to high performance pistons was high performance wrist pins? I see a jump in logic here.

Yes, fiber reinforced steel Metal Matrix Composit (MMC) is the replacement for such things as cylinder liners, wrist pins and pushrods.

Tintin · Nov 13, 2012

Dances with Shrapnel said:
So there's another spin on history, or conspiracy theory, or jesting.

Sorry, but which part of :mrgreen: did you not understand?

Any articles you care to cite to back this up.

Wanna have a guess? I worked in F1 for two outfits for seven years in total and had to redesign quite a lot of stuff when the material white lists were introduced - and yes actually there are tons of websites dealing with the subject. The only problem that you have to read between the lines. This is where most of F1 rules are written. If you ever have a chance to get a glance at the "Charlie Whiting clarifications" you'll know why. In contrast to the official rules they are not published so if you want to have a look you should ask your nearest F1 team.

So why not Aluminum Beryllium pistons today? The only reasons for the ban that I have read about to-date had to do with ESH matters.

The main reason for banning materials and expensive technology in general is entirely cost driven and should you really care about this subject there is plenty of background info available about things like who was the main driver behind cost saving.

So the "technical answer" to high performance pistons was high performance wrist pins? I see a jump in logic here.

Sorry, help me out please - the original question was related to what? But maybe you logic detector can be readjusted ..... :roll:

TTFN

Tim

Dances with Shrapnel · Nov 13, 2012

Thanks for your insight. Tons of websites? How about PM me a few - interested in reading the stuff.

As for jump in logic, I direct you to your statement about the "technical answer" to high performance pistons was high performance wrist pins?

A jump in logic as it is apples to oranges; only common denominator I see is lower reciprocating mass - anything else. What am I missing?

Hobot · Nov 13, 2012

Ugh, the politics of racing and its sponsors is legend and current long article in Cycle World or such [I'm sent a few bike mags] covers things like fuel amount restrictions just so it give bargaining leverage to the association president and some kick backs from likes of Honda or tire makers. Scientifically there is way more risk from the solvents and fluids and gases associated with servicing and building them let alone the risk of riding them. Many bikes were banned from US d/t the childerns risk of lead poisioning from the batteries and alloy in a bearing or bush they migh ingest or lay in a puddle of on crashes or sleeping with they love it so much.

Jim Schimdt wrist pins are same as thin light robust NASCAR developed and essentially bullet and wear proof in mere British twin applications. I read the tech on it but could not find it on his site so far but claims after hi end racers go through an engine refresh the wrist pins are sold to slightly lessor financed racers - still good as new.

Paul · Nov 13, 2012

Another Harley application of Beryllium bronze was the wormgear of the Buell's oil pump. This (steel) part used to wear away untill wat was left of the teeth broke off causing a total destruction of the engine. When asked about it, Buell claimed they didn't know about this issue...
Untill they made a so called "high performance worm gear" , not to solve the premature wear but a magic way to give your bike some extra horsepower ! :mrgreen: made of Beryllium bronze. It seems to be an adequate solution though.

Hobot · Nov 13, 2012

Hehe an old famous company did similar PR denial with unneeded upgrade of bearings by giving them a new name, Superblends.
Maybe the toxic fear is what did in this PR campaign.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6F4GtyRfto[/video]

acotrel · Nov 14, 2012

Could I use that to seal a gasket ?

cjandme · Nov 14, 2012

Dances with Shrapnel said:
acotrel said:

On the OHS matter, I seem to remember that beryllium is toxic. It has been used in beryllium-copper applications, and is dangerous to machine without the controlled environment. Using a beryllium/aluminium alloy in pistons in motors might have been outlawed because of the potential to generate air born particulates with might cause lung disease, when the motor is running..
http://materion.com/ResourceCenter/Envi ... tAlloy.pdf

Click to expand...

Machining where chips/ribbons are generated is generally not a problem; grinding and fine particle creation is a problem without rigorous air controls. Inhalation is bad news; chips in skin is also not good.
Well I can chime in here about Beryllium copper being a "no-no". While working on F-18's back in the '90s we found almost all of our squadrons aircraft had a problem with corrosion on the nose landing gear door ESD "fingers" that interlocked with the fuselage ESD "fingers". They were made of a beryllium copper alloy and being placed in direct contact with the aluminum skin caused dis-similar metal corrosion (go figure). The aluminum suffered the most, but the beryllium strips were also damaged. Supply was unable to provide us with replacement strips, so what did my LPO/supervisor have us do......sand the corrosion off of the beryllium strips with a flap brush so that we could re-use them of course. The safety officer went ape shit when he found out, but by then our birds were already back in the air, and we didn't hear anymore about it. Still waiting to see if I develop lung disease.

Dances with Shrapnel · Nov 14, 2012

That's the shits.

bwolfie · Nov 14, 2012

Right before I left Cessna, Textron the parent company, mandated collection of all cad plated items. We couldn't throw them in the trash, had to put them in a special bucket. And our Health and Safety guy got really pissy about this. There were issues and procedures for removing corrosion on a plated part. I am all for safety, but there is a point of diminishing returns. I started replacing any questionable items to avoid this.

Beryllium-Steel Piston Pins

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