Amals and Mk. 3

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trident sam

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I'm thinking of removing the single 34 Mikuni on my Mk.3 and replacing it with two new Amals and ham can air filter , question is would it be better to use 30 or 32mm carbs, I'm always more interested in midrange and torque than outright top speed.
Also, while I'm asking , what's the thoughts on a twin pull throttle ? is there any advantage, I don't think I've even rode any bike with one.
sam
 
trident sam said:
I'm thinking of removing the single 34 Mikuni on my Mk.3 and replacing it with two new Amals and ham can air filter , question is would it be better to use 30 or 32mm carbs, I'm always more interested in midrange and torque than outright top speed.
Also, while I'm asking , what's the thoughts on a twin pull throttle ? is there any advantage, I don't think I've even rode any bike with one.
sam

If you've got the stock head Sam, it will be the RH4 with 32mm ports if I'm not mistaken, so 32mm carbs should be the order of the day I'd say.

A mate of mine went from a single 34mm mkII to twin 32mm mkI's and said it transformed the bike (for the better).

Ref single pull versus twin pull, i think its more about personal taste. I prefer a single pull throttle, I keep the carb cables as short as possible before going into a junction box. This keep the cable routing up to the bars neat and simple, I also find that with twin pull, the cables can pull differently on the carbs when moving the bars side to side. Set up as I described, the carbs just seem to stay in synch for ever!
 
I prefer twin cables with the adjusters just a few inches from the throttle. It makes synching much easier.
 
trident sam said:
I'm thinking of removing the single 34 Mikuni on my Mk.3 and replacing it with two new Amals and ham can air filter , question is would it be better to use 30 or 32mm carbs, I'm always more interested in midrange and torque than outright top speed.
Also, while I'm asking , what's the thoughts on a twin pull throttle ? is there any advantage, I don't think I've even rode any bike with one.
sam


Tri sam,
Stick with the 932's for an 850 with the stepped spray tube and you should be correct for the Mk3 engine. You may need to file a small flat on inboard side of the L/H and R/H flange and blanking bosses to get the carbs to not contact each other. It is a really tight fit between the two carbs. I would go with the new Premiers as they finally corrected the earlier faults of these carbs. If you are going to use the ham can filter then look at the mains for a 74 to get the carbs right. They may be different from the mk3 setting as these had different airbox filters and mufflers. If you change cams or exhaust like I did you may need to go up or down on Main jet sizes to get it right.
Cheers,
Thomas
CNN
 
I thought it had been robustly established on previous threads that the stepped spray tube was something fitted by the factory to overcome performance shortfalls caused by the black cap silencers?

If so, they're only useful for those wishing to run black caps.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I thought it had been robustly established on previous threads that the stepped spray tube was something fitted by the factory to overcome performance shortfalls caused by the black cap silencers?


No, the fitting of the stepped spray tubes has nothing to do with black caps.
 
L.A.B. said:
Fast Eddie said:
I thought it had been robustly established on previous threads that the stepped spray tube was something fitted by the factory to overcome performance shortfalls caused by the black cap silencers?


No, the fitting of the stepped spray tubes has nothing to do with black caps.

My mistake LAB, it seemed to be related to the use of mutes in the peashooters and the requirements for a very specific acceleration test for the USA according to past posts, is that right?
 
Fast Eddie said:
what's the reason then? it seemed to be related to the use of mutes in the peashooters and the requirements for a very specific acceleration test for the USA according to past posts, is that right?


Yes, the stepped spray tubes were only necessary for when mutes were fitted to peashooters to pass a US acceleration test, however, this appears to have resulted in the stepped spray tube carbs being fitted as standard to all 850 models.

rowley-test-method-t22940.html#p301025

(Edited)
A new acceleration test was introduced for USA and from memory the test was 40 mph snap open throttle in top gear, this was fine without the mutes fitted, but with the mutes ( small disk fitted to the end of the exhaust silencer ) , this caused a the muted condition, ..............................the final cure was to install a cut away spray tube, this allowed a much smaller main jet to be used this in turn stopped the eight stroking when trying to pass the USA acceleration test, think 40 to 60 mph in a certain time.

It is not difficult to see how this worked, FOR THE MUTED CONDITION

Most times with the mutes fitted we would snap at the 1/4 mile point at 30 and 40 mph and be doing the same speed, 30 or 40 mph at the timing lights, after 1/4 mile, of course you could feather the throttle back and judicially pick up speed and improve, but the idea was that a person when accelerating passed a long vehicle could not be expected to intervene and should expect a solid reliable acceleration.

You may not be aware that AMAL did not set up the Carburettors for the trade, BSA, TRIUMPH, NORTON but development worked closely with Amal, and the responsibility for final sign off and payment was down to the Test and Development department of each of the firms, as Deputy group test rider under Bob Mann's we carried such responsibility........


One final thing that would vindicate the modification was the fact that we had over 150 bikes held up and not allowed in California test Authority, and after the modification they and all subsequent Nortons passed straight in.

I am not sure if Alan Lines? of Amal is still alive but he would no doubt give ....chapter and verse on how and why the cutaway spray tube was beneficial to the MUTED CONDITION.


Regards
Bob Rowley
 
So, unless one intends to run with mutes fitted, and has a riding style that includes snapping open the throttle at 40mph in top gear... Presumably the standard (ie not stepped) spray tubes would be more appropriate?
 
Fast Eddie said:
So, unless one intends to run with mutes fitted, and has a riding style that includes snapping open the throttle at 40mph in top gear... Presumably the standard (ie not stepped) spray tubes would be more appropriate?


I couldn't honestly say if it would be more appropriate or not, but both versions seem to work under normal riding conditions.

My 850 Mk3's (obviously non-original) carbs have flat-topped spray tubes (and 2-ID needles) and there are no flat spots or other throttle/mixture problems.
 
L.A.B. said:
Fast Eddie said:
So, unless one intends to run with mutes fitted, and has a riding style that includes snapping open the throttle at 40mph in top gear... Presumably the standard (ie not stepped) spray tubes would be more appropriate?


I couldn't honestly say if it would be more appropriate or not, but both versions seem to work under normal riding conditions.

My 850 Mk3's (obviously non-original) carbs have flat-topped spray tubes (and 2-ID needles) and there are no flat spots or other throttle/mixture problems.

And I think that's what I'd go with too Lab.

IMHO it sounds like the stepped spray tubes were designed to solve an artificially caused problem.

The main jet comes fully into play at WOT, but the carb designer would also have assumed the engine to be doing sufficient revs to draw sufficient air through the carb and, basically, allow it to work properly.

By snapping the throttle open fully at 40mph in top, I'd say the poor old carb would be very confused. Being at WOT without the engine drawing enough air is gonna do that.

The way I read it, Norton solved the 'issue' of 8 stroking under these false conditions via the stepped spray tube.

Avoid these false conditions, and all is as Amal intended... The issue, and 'solution' both being negated.
 
L.A.B. said:
My 850 Mk3's (obviously non-original) carbs have flat-topped spray tubes (and 2-ID needles) and there are no flat spots or other throttle/mixture problems.

My 74 came that way. And to the OP's question, is it possible to put a ham can air cleaner on a Mk3? Aren't the battery tray and air filter mounts totally different?
 
L.A.B. said:
Fast Eddie said:
So, unless one intends to run with mutes fitted, and has a riding style that includes snapping open the throttle at 40mph in top gear... Presumably the standard (ie not stepped) spray tubes would be more appropriate?


I couldn't honestly say if it would be more appropriate or not, but both versions seem to work under normal riding conditions.

My 850 Mk3's (obviously non-original) carbs have flat-topped spray tubes (and 2-ID needles) and there are no flat spots or other throttle/mixture problems.

I had a feeling that I might have been opening a can of worms here regarding the stepped spray tube :roll: but my logic is that the type carb I recommended would be closest to his year bike. The needle jet should be the same. The 4 line 850 type needle is slightly longer and came with the stepped spray tube. The main jet may need to play with if using the twin down tubes exhaust aka 750 without the cross over pipe or the air filter change, cam etc. You will have to do the road tests to dial it in to get it close.
Both types should work.
Cheers,
Thomas
CNN
 
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