A Slippery Slope Indeed

When weighing the options available for a Commando rebuild, the work and the money that may be invested are seemingly endless. And of course it is often easy to rationalize the reason for spending a little bit more. Sometimes the reasons for spending that extra effort and cash is completely intellectual, like deciding to take vitamin D. We are told it is a good idea, it promotes healthy joints and skin, defends against cancer. It improves our mood and it might help remove plaque from our arteries. Jeepers! Why wouldn't you take it? But for most of us, you can't exactly draw a line and see what your life is like without it vs what it is like with it. You have to take some of it on faith that it will pay off down the road. Hmmm, down the road, interesting metaphor...back to the Commando.

Here is what I am looking at on my potential rebuild. I say potential because until you start putting it back together, you are really just parting it out!

Cases-I would like to add the CNW breather to my cases. I could fool myself into making my own, but the machine shop I have access to is full of WWII vintage equipment. It is all big, wonderful, powerful stuff that has been used for years without much care. I have made a lot of stuff in there, but the truth is I destroy about 50% of my projects, so usually start with raw material so I can...start over. So my Norton cases...probably not a good idea. So if I send them to CNW it is about 265.00 for the breather and the machining. But while they are there, why not get them cleaned and tumbled too? Not only does the tumbling provide a great looking surface but it essentially shot peens the inside of the case making it shed oil better. Sounds like a good idea, sorta like the vitamin D. Add around 250 bucks.

Cylinders-Why on an air cooled engine would you not like the idea of heat dissapating coatings? Again CNW to the rescue, they have started offering a service where they will coat the cylinder barrels with a heat dissapating coating. Reportedly it holds up much better than paint, it helps the engine shed heat and while they have your barrels they get bored and honed. The mating surface is checked and ground and there is a promise of making sure the cylinders are actually parallel to each other. Yikes! It never really occured to me that maybe they aren't! But based on my experience using the above mentioned equipment, well maybe it isn't that far fetched. I have some 2 X 4 braces I use on the mill too. This service is 325 bucks. I started itemizing what it would take for me to do this myself. Just to get the friggen heat dissapating paint shipped to where I live is gonna run about 150 bucks, then I still have to sand blast and clean barrels for prep. I can find somebody to sand blast it, or fool myself into thinking I am gonna buy one that will do the job very well. I have used some cheap sand blasters, they aren't worth the sand you clog em up with, so....damn I am about 250 bucks into my little project already and I haven't addressed the bores.

So, we move down the list. Each time for just a little bit more money we can do something just a little bit better. Might as well tumble the head for the shot peening too. Might as well think about painting the crank with a coating that will help it shed oil. The end result is that by the time all of my major components for my 850 engine have been touched by magic, I am about 2400 bucks into the cases, cylinders, head, pistons, cam. Ouch.

I am perched on the edge of my checkbook thinking about whether to jump off or walk away. There are lots of cheaper options. Like just using my cases the way the are! So I have been to see the doctor, have my list of stuff I am supposed to do to improve my health and now I need a few beers with my buds to think about it.

So do I start eating salads or not?

Russ

rvich said:

Cases-I would like to add the CNW breather to my cases. I could fool myself into making my own, but the machine shop I have access to is full of WWII vintage equipment. It is all big, wonderful, powerful stuff that has been used for years without much care. I have made a lot of stuff in there, but the truth is I destroy about 50% of my projects, so usually start with raw material so I can...start over. So my Norton cases...probably not a good idea. So if I send them to CNW it is about 265.00 for the breather and the machining. But while they are there, why not get them cleaned and tumbled too? Not only does the tumbling provide a great looking surface but it essentially shot peens the inside of the case making it shed oil better. Sounds like a good idea, sorta like the vitamn D. Add around 250 bucks.

Click to expand...

The CNW breather is one of the best things I've ever done to my race bike, and will be just as wonderful for your street bike. I have never had a racing Norton motor come back as dry as mine does after each race. I mean DRY. It's one of those things you can't really see, and doesn't "really" make you go faster, but it's one more thing to add to the reliability of the motor, developed and evolved to work seamlessly. It's a beautiful piece and well worth the expense. Any motor that I'm building that gets down to the cases will get this breather improvement.

I considered having my motor disassembled/tumbled/prettied up but for me it wasn't worth it. I already had a strong runner so I opted instead to paint the whole damn thing with high temp black paint. I think it looks great and it was dirt cheap to do. It also sets the bike off when sitting next to other commandos, IMO.

You can go nuts on a lot of this stuff but I don't usually see it as being worth it (for me), most of the time. Then again, I spent $225 on finned rocker box covers that really serve no purpose...

I've done a lot of fretting over how much I've dumped into my bike but at the end of the day does it really matter? Not really. I'm loving how my bike has come together, regardless of the money I spent to get it there!

-Jordan

Russ,
One of my favorite bikes I've ever seen was a ratty Bagger/Bobber that had a $10k S&S motor in it. The guy was getting flack on blowing his budget on the engine. Made perfect sense to me. You could call it an investment because the value is there if you ever sold the bike. People may or may not like the details of what you did like pegs, seat, color, and the rest; but what's not to like about a well done engine?

Regarding Vit D, make sure that it's included in your next blood workup. In Alaska, they should probably add it to the water like fluoride. Eat lots of fish but pass on the pate at the next Polar Bear BBQ. It's lethal due to Vit D content.

I traded real job and 'big' money in city for real life w/o much money in the Ozarks and never looked back. I'd be fine money wise even so - if not for the ever loving never ending addiction need for speed on a Commando. My whole career revolves around seeing the before and after effects of a bit extra expense and effort in people lives adding minerals, Vit D and some simple neck stretching. The main factor in recovering life crippling stuff from genetic deflects to horrific trauma is how intelligent they are to do what it takes when they can't at 1st see the connections of taking a few tablets and some time to build up ahead of life's wear and tearing. The 2nd thing is having something to look forward too in family, work, hobby and their own ease to carry on.

Loosing friends and family to out of the blue events depressed me to mention on line to get an Irish quote back I reflect on daily now.
"We are not here for a long time, just a good time." I only add I want to take as many with me as I can. You racer dudes are doing that in spades for us all, thank you for the sacrifice and suffering, us onlookers hardly feel a pang of the pains...

On this subject d/t some accidents of fate I think Ms Peel could be the fastest corner 2 wheeled thing ever fielded but needs power to extend that over elites in straight sprints. How do ya do that on air cooled push rod clunker, TORQUE! and extra heat handling by best materials and processing I can afford. About 6-7 yr ago I decided to take it to the limit. No race deadlines or rules apply to me so not same pressure as you real racers. Anywho check out Swain's Coatings, their Black Body Emission in this particular case as cost effective enough to spring for, at least in my case.

Someday we need a pow wow on how to get enough reserves to take a horrific crash and bounce back for more and have old age wisdom with teenager old joints and circulation and nerve function. Our tissues regrow to new if good intelligence simply applied.

I have been reading this forum for a year or so, gaining insight from the masters on the mysterious ways of the wonderful Norton machines. I too, have looked on with admiration at all excellent updates I could do to my '75 E-start. Sadly , I lament the lack of disposable funds- promising myself that come retirement- I will send my motor to CNW ! Well, until then folks, I say go for it now if you can! Why put off now what you can pay for later?
LOL

Russ,

I've never been unhappy when I've taken the more expensive option I have in front of me. Sometimes it's the cheapest way out in the long run. If you've ever tried to cut corners on a project, and were sorry you did, a lot of folks end up going with what they should have done to begin with. I'm guilty of this on more subjects than just motorcycles. For myself, I reject the idea of having to "come out OK" on something. I'm doing this for fun. I don't play golf or own a boat, so all the $$$ I save on that, well, it makes this hobby seem downright afordable. Have fun, sounds like you've really got things mapped out, and know what you want.

Let me post my position from the other side.

As someone who restores quite a few bikes, my goal is to always buy the best starting point I can, then restore it to good running order keeping it as original as practical and not exceeding the current average market value of said bike.

To that end, I found a 73 850 in a barn that had sat for likely 20 years. 4200 original miles. Original paint was excellent, chrome was pretty good. Frame was rusted some. Motor had a broken head stud as far as I knew.

Basically I stripped her down, repainted frame and swingarm. cleaned and polished the rest. Popped the head only, fixed the stud. Re-did the carbies, cleaned out the oil tank, rebuilt the stock brakes, and had to put in a new clutch. That and new tires.

I kept the original Amals, original electrics, etc. etc. etc.

Yes I could have updated the brakes, could have gone electronics, could have gone Mikuni, could have gone belt drive but didn't. And you know what. I have $4200 in the bike, pretty well under what I think its' worth, It's a great runner the way it is, and it's just about as original as one can get. Sure it weeps a tad after a long ride but very very little. Front brake isn't the best but better than some of my other bikes. It's a strong runner. And it starts better than those Norts that have been all buggered up with Japanese carbs and mystery electronics.

So the decision really is yours. You can have a perfectly acceptable bike and not spend all that money, or you can and try to make it better. I guess it's a matter of will power.

Yes, spend all your money & more on "upgrades".
My new (well old really) 750 is completely standard, as left the factory. Seems fine. Ran my 850 for years as my only transport in the '70s, totally standard, went well.
I put it this way, if a part is clapped out, then replace it with what you want. If a part is servicable, think twice.
An Norton full of aftermarket parts is usually harder to sell.

There are many oil-tight, excellent running Commandos without oil-shedding coatings or the CNW breather mod. Whether or not you add the breather is just a decision between you, your peace of mind, and your wallet. All we can offer is our experiences. There is no wrong decision.

Hi Russ. When you asked me for my opinions on what mods to make some time ago I look back and there wasn't one thing I recommended for the bling factor. the things I recommended were all practical things that made the bike nicer to ride and/or more reliable with easier maintenance. Really, it all comes back to whether you want to pose on it for your own ego or if you truly want to have a better ride. CNW's stuff is truly top of the range and spending the money on the motor to make it more efficient and/or longer lasting has to be a good thing. If you can justify the spending to yourself.
My 850 motor is standard apart from one of my cylinder heads and a set of Maney barrels. I love it totally and don't really yearn for more power or for a mirror finish on the components. The finish on my cases and other components is pretty standard and they get a polish every 8 months whether they need it or not. As much as I love what Matt and company do for Nortons, if I was to order a bike from him I would specify less bling as I just couldn't justify the time spent cleaning and polishing. It would drive me nuts.
Regarding the internal coatings on engine components, I would have done them all on my last rebuild but circumstances got away from me and I only had the tops and skirts of the pistons done. Next time.
The CNW breather mod would be an absolute must next time around.

Hey we all need to be wealthy enough to get two Commando's one plain Jane like me and Flo to really test ya tinkering skills for a delightful thriller and another one to go whole hog on like my Peel or these CNW sur-real wonders. I just remind myself how many weekends I got before I ain't and how I want to feel most the time i"m still here. Its is never ending so enjoy the journey as far as ya can afford.

by rvich » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:08 am

When weighing the options available for a Commando rebuild, the work and the money that may be invested are seemingly endless.

Click to expand...

No, I think it has been set at $45,000. Feel free to try and break it.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Norton-N ... otorcycles

I say go for it Russ, I'm Gonna get the crankcase breather when mine comes apart. Spend what you can on the Motor and get it done right. Hell I have 6 young kids and shouldn't be spending ANY money on my bike---I shouldn't have bought the thing in first place based upon my bank account. But i tell you what....now that i have it, i'm sure glad i did. I'm going with JS motorsports lightweight pistons and connecting rods, cam and lifter kit....build it they way you want it, you'll be glad you did later. just my 2 cents Cj

Hi- I'm still on my first Commando- but I have done a number of old cars- Firebird, Mustang, BMW 3.0 Coupe, Jaguar, even an old Plymouth Valiant. Every time I do a restoration, whether it's meant to be bone stock, more of a custom, or real showy- I spend the money on things that will really matter. Engine mods that improve reliability, performance, safety, longevity- these are worth the money. Brakes, suspension, chassis- these are worth the money. Bling? Well, maybe it is too. I like to think of it as "If it makes me feel good, I'll spend the dough." So I would polish the cases 'cuz damn it looks so good. I also see the appeal to the dark-painted cases if that's the look you like- it's the same objective. When I'm toolin' down the road, or stopped for a while, and I step back from the bike, or car- I want to look at it and see something special. I don't want to look at it and see "Aw, I really wish I'd done that..." So I say hey, live large, make it the bike you really always wanted to own. I personally do not worry about resale value or whether I'll get my dollars back someday- I want to enjoy it now, so that when I look at the bike, I grin a big old poop-eatin' grin, and say "Damn- that's my bike!" Good luck and enjoy!!!

I'm impatient, and thus, my projects always wind up "almost" good enough. I'm also obsessive in regards to effort and find that each task sticks in my head until I can finish, and I'd go without sleep if I could.

Then I bought the Norton, which is testing me tremendously. I keep telling myself that this time, everything gets done the right way. If Its busted, I wait for the replacement part. If I'm over my head or don't have the correct tools, I buy them, do proper research, and/or take the work to a pro.

Well, I know now that my Commando won't see the road for a while. I'm well aware of the expensive and time consuming tasks that remain. If I can take care of one major item a month, then I'm progressing towards my goal. I also know that when this project is done, I will be able to look at it over a cold one, and be awfully proud.

rvich
How deep are your pockets?
If Republican deep go for everything the CNW has to offer. Best stuff for sure.
If not that deep I'd hate to think of spending all that money that for sure you will never recover if you sell the bike and yet unless you plan on racing it its road performance may still be pretty much what a standard Norton Commando offers.
Mikes $20 SX650 breather on mine and it sounds like most others bikes gives me a leak proof bike. Isn't that what you are after.
My $160 Pazon ignition and Mikuni carb give me easy starting and reliable running. Isn't that what you are after.
Since when have we had an engine sieze because it couldn't dissipate heat fast enough? If worried add an oil cooler.
Is the standard oil circulation system so poor we need to help the oil move through the crankcase?

It all boils down to how you want to ride and how much money you can afford to spend. This is not an investment. The more money you spend the more money you will not get back on the sell side. Keeping the bike forever does help the calculation of return on investment.
Maybe I sound like a father advising the son not to buy the muscle car that he can't afford but I think its good advice.

Ride on
Bob

The stock 850 Commando, well maintained with the addition of a Boyer ignition, is perfectly fine and reliable for day to day use and trips of thousands of miles.

So have the guides and seats redone in the head, bore the cylinder and fit new pistons, and grind the crank and get new bearings. Paint the cylinders with stove-black for wood burning stoves. Don't bead-blast anything, clean the cases, head etc. with kerosene and a brush and some hard-wood scrapers.

There are a lot of new gadjets and procedures out there, but if you have a really good mechanic he can do a great job on an old-time stock rebuild at home with a minimum spent.

I am sure there are bikes out there that have been screwed together with more money than talent and a lot of fancy parts that are no better or even worse than a well-tuned stocker.