850 MkIII Shop Manual & Parts Catalog Errors

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L.A.B. said:
snipped

There are online copies of the manual and parts book.

https://issuu.com/sealycycleservice/doc ... iiies-1975
http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/850_man.pdf

The parts drawings at Andover Norton are also useful.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawings/7

Use the Fig.H3(a) diagram in the manual for the rear wheel assembly because the parts book diagram isn't completely accurate, also note that some copies of the Mk3 manual say in section H4, that the rear wheel lock ring is LEFT HAND thread, which is not correct, it's RH.
snipped

L.A.B.
Regarding the "left hand thread" error in the shop manual, are you referring to page H3, left hand column, bottom paragraph? If so, I've managed to edit that out [and correct a host of spelling & syntax errors on the page]. I'm going to contact you via PM so that I can email you a copy of where I think the error is [it's in the version of the Shop Manual you have linked above] and a copy of my edited [corrected] page to have you verify. I can then replace that page in the manual. I'll make the corrected manual available to any member who requests it, once I've got it fixed.
Does anyone know of any other errors in the MkIII shop manual?


Regarding downloading the Parts Catalog, I find the one available on the britmoto site to be easier to deal with. See

http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/8503e_pt.pdf

Thank you for providing us with those links above. I still have my paper versions [purchased in 1984]. However, you can easily enlarge PDF files [old guy eye syndrome] and it's easier to get oily fingerprints off my computer screen! :D
 

L.A.B.

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chaztuna said:
L.A.B.
Regarding the "left hand thread" error in the shop manual, are you referring to page H3, left hand column, bottom paragraph?

Yes, although actually section H4. My paper copy has "RIGHT HAND THREAD"



chaztuna said:
Does anyone know of any other errors in the MkIII shop manual?

Another couple of Mk3 manual errors which readily spring to mind are C22, Oil Pressure Relief Valve , as "Oil escaping from the valve...." does not return to the feed side of the pump on as it says on the Mk3 model, also C36, drawing Fig.C32 and sentence in the following paragraph as the Mk3 timing cover screws are all the same length.
The Mk3 parts book also has several errors, the rear wheel assembly drawing being the most notable.
 
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L.A.B. said:
chaztuna said:
Does anyone know of any other errors in the MkIII shop manual?

Another couple of Mk3 manual errors which readily spring to mind are C22, Oil Pressure Relief Valve , as "Oil escaping from the valve...." does not return to the feed side of the pump on as it says on the Mk3 model, also C36, drawing Fig.C32 and sentence in the following paragraph as the Mk3 timing cover screws are all the same length.
The Mk3 parts book also has several errors, the rear wheel assembly drawing being the most notable.

I've sent you my edits for H3 & C13. Regarding C22, if memory serves, the escaping oil is simply vented by the relief valve into the timing chest, is that not correct? Please advise. I believe you meant section C26, not C36. I'm not sure that I can make corrections in the drawing. Failing that, I can put a note below stating that the covers screws are all one length.
 

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chaztuna said:
I've sent you my edits for H3 & C13.

Thanks. I haven't had a chance to study them in detail just yet.


chaztuna said:
Regarding C22, if memory serves, the escaping oil is simply vented by the relief valve into the timing chest, is that not correct?

Yes, that is correct.

chaztuna said:
I believe you meant section C26, not C36.

Yes, sorry, it is C26.

In order not to hijack spoiled's rebuild thread, I suggest we continue this discussion in a new thread (in the main Commando section) if we or anyone else has anything further to add regarding manual/parts book errors.
 
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Les,
I was thinking the same thing regarding moving our conversation, so as to not high jack the original thread. Perhaps the moderator(s) could move our conversation starting on page 2 of the original thread, over to this one?

L.A.B. said:
chaztuna said:
L.A.B.
Regarding the "left hand thread" error in the shop manual, are you referring to page H3, left hand column, bottom paragraph?

Yes, although actually section H4. My paper copy has "RIGHT HAND THREAD"

snipped

I stand corrected. I have changed the titles of that edited document. I've emailed you my edited version of section C26 along the a syntax question. I'll start on C22 now.
 

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chaztuna said:
I was thinking the same thing regarding moving our conversation, so as to not high jack the original thread. Perhaps the moderator(s) could move our conversation starting on page 2 of the original thread, over to this one?

Ok, done.
 
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Not sure if these have been included -

Workshop manual - re-assembling the crank description, as far it is known there is only one crank for the MK3 and is fixed together using the parts in the parts book.
Parts book - electric start diagram parts labeled from the wrong end in some parts books. Yes, still being sold in the UK.
Parts book - oil tank lower mounting, uses two washers, one either side of the grommet and an insert in the grommet.
Warning light assimilator - early and late positions.
 
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Madnorton said:
Not sure if these have been included -

Workshop manual - re-assembling the crank description, as far it is known there is only one crank for the MK3 and is fixed together using the parts in the parts book.
Parts book - electric start diagram parts labeled from the wrong end in some parts books. Yes, still being sold in the UK.
Parts book - oil tank lower mounting, uses two washers, one either side of the grommet and an insert in the grommet.
Warning light assimilator - early and late positions.

Thanks for the " heads up" on these. That said, could you include the section of the shop manual or page of the parts catalog where these errors are? I spend 20 -30 minutes to edit each page with errors. I don't want to spend even more time searching for these errors.
TIA
Charlie

PS Contact me off list with the additional info. Check my user name to learn how to contact me via email or PM. Email is better.
 
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Madnorton said:
Not sure if these have been included -

Workshop manual - re-assembling the crank description, as far it is known there is only one crank for the MK3 and is fixed together using the parts in the parts book. snipped

I do note that they advise to polish the rod journals with emery cloth. That's a big "no no", as emery will embed abrasives into the steel. Proper procedure is to use Crocus cloth, not emery. I also spotted a few spelling errors which I can correct. I've noticed throughout the manual that the engineer who wrote it, must have failed English in school. He tends towards "run on" sentences of 4 & 5 lines, veritable 1 sentence paragraphs. He's in love with commas, but loathes periods!

I also noted another error in the photo copied version of the Shop Manual I downloaded. Two pages of section C are transposed. I'll fix that as well.
 
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Workshop Manual, Section C2-14 states that an undamaged head gasket can be re-used. I've added that this only holds true for the solid copper head gaskets. Obviously, you can not re-use a flame ring head gasket.
 
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Re: flame ring old vs new

chaztuna said:
Obviously, you can not re-use a flame ring head gasket.

Your statement makes me think you are new to norton's.

Years ago the flame ring gaskets did NOT come with thermoset adhesive coating. I did in fact reuse the original head gaskets many times.
Only later did ??? they ??? start with the glue and you would end up destroying the gaskets to get them off. Scraping the head and barrels was required along with a new gasket each time.
 
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Re: flame ring old vs new

dynodave said:
chaztuna said:
Obviously, you can not re-use a flame ring head gasket.

Your statement makes me think you are new to norton's.

Years ago the flame ring gaskets did NOT come with thermoset adhesive coating. I did in fact reuse the original head gaskets many times.
Only later did ??? they ??? start with the glue and you would end up destroying the gaskets to get them off. Scraping the head and barrels was required along with a new gasket each time.

Dave, compared to many, I am. I started playing with Nortons in the early 1980s. Switched to Ducati [Head gaskets, we don't need no stinkin' head gaskets! Apologies to Mel Brooks] in the 90s. Just starting to play with bikes again after a 15 year layoff.I have never seen a flame ring head gasket without the gray sealant. I stand corrected. That said, I doubt you can find one of those old "re-usable" flame ring gaskets. Does anyone still produce them? I'll change my edit to reflect this.

I corrected a lot of the pages in section C of the Mk III workshop manual. The edited pages look so much cleaner than that old scanned PDF does. So I started at the beginning and have been editing 1 to 4 pages an evening. Tonight I've been working on page A12. Wow! Lots of little typos on that page. One instance of 15 lbs/ft rather than 15 lbs/inch called out for the front brake lever nut/bolt. I do have a question for you wizards. It calls out the following:

Main shaft nut: 40/50 lbs./ft. (5·50 Kg/m)

This is for the right end of the gearbox main shaft. This strikes me as odd. They give a torque range in English yet only a single torque [equivalent to almost 40 lbs/ft] in the metric spec. I looked up the spec in my older 1970 to 1984 manual. In section D10-8 they state to torque to 70 lbs/ft for the earlier bikes. Any advice/comments on this? Perspiring minds want to know! :)

I want to thank all the members of this forum. It's jogged my memory on a lot of forgotten stuff. I've also learned a lot here.
 
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"In section D10-8 they state to torque to 70 lbs/ft for the earlier bikes. Any advice/comments on this?"

Enough testing has been done to substantiate the circlip starts to deform above 40 ft/lbs. Without really knowing for sure , I strongly feel this may have been a "carry over" from the norton coil spring clutch (pre commando) into the commando shop manual. It uses an entirely different clamping style on the end of the main shaft and I found it to be a bit flexy even at very high torque. Single chain might be OK, but a commando belt drive on an atlas shaft using the commercially offered clutch center was entirely unsuitable and I could not successfully stabilize it at any torque.
 

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chaztuna said:
Main shaft nut: 40/50 lbs./ft. (5·50 Kg/m)

This is for the right end of the gearbox main shaft. This strikes me as odd. They give a torque range in English yet only a single torque [equivalent to almost 40 lbs/ft] in the metric spec. I looked up the spec in my older 1970 to 1984 manual. In section D10-8 they state to torque to 70 lbs/ft for the earlier bikes. Any advice/comments on this? Perspiring minds want to know!

Not just the earlier bikes, as it states "45/50" in section A and "70" in D10-8 of both manuals (1970 - 74[73] and Mk3).
45/50 is correct for the mainshaft nut as far as I'm aware.



dynodave said:
Enough testing has been done to substantiate the circlip starts to deform above 40 ft/lbs.

But this is the mainshaft nut, Dave, not the Clutch-to-mainshaft nut, (that's Mk3, C34-13).
 
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chaztuna said:
"In section D10-8 they state to torque to 70 lbs/ft for the earlier bikes. Any advice/comments on this?"

dynodave said:
Enough testing has been done to substantiate the circlip starts to deform above 40 ft/lbs. Without really knowing for sure , I strongly feel this may have been a "carry over" from the Norton coil spring clutch (pre commando) into the commando shop manual. It uses an entirely different clamping style on the end of the main shaft and I found it to be a bit flexy even at very high torque. Single chain might be OK, but a commando belt drive on an atlas shaft using the commercially offered clutch center was entirely unsuitable and I could not successfully stabilize it at any torque.

Dave,
Thanks for the info about the clutch side circlips failing. I do remember that happening on a P 11 & Commandos that belonged to friends of mine. Earlier today as I was surfing this forum, someone [Glen perhaps] recommended using a circlip for the Mk III starter splined shaft, P/N 06-8072 in place of the specified circlip. This part is alleged to be stronger. I assume that your use of a lower torque on the clutch center nut has not met with disaster. I'll make a note that using a lower torque or the alternate circlip may be advisable. The listing for use of 40 -50 lbs/ft on the right side of the Mk III main-shaft is found on page A 12, in the torque table. As Les mentioned, on page D10-8, they still call for 70 lbs/ft.

Currently, I'm aghast at the mess that section C-17 is. I'm open to any help trying to clarify that mess. The issue is the first sentences on the top of the right hand column. Clear as mud! I know what he's trying to say. However, for a newbie, it would be confusing.

Perhaps MadNortons comments relate to what I've found on section C-17? I've also found an error on the crankshaft exploded view in the Mk III parts catalog. I've discovered that the PDF versions of this document I've been able to download are all "secured" That means that the creator of the document password protected it. Without the password, I have no way of making corrections to that document. Does anyone know of a source for this parts catalog that is not secured?
 
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I have one, no idea where I got it but it's 37mb, I can email you a Google Drive link so you can download it. I tried to resize it but it ended up bigger.

Or there is this one

http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/8503e_pt.pdf

5mb and editable, using Nito Pro I am converting it to searchable, not very reliable on a scanned doc but better than nothing and now at 6mb and can email.
 
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So, when you're all done are you going to post the errata so that I can pencil it into my paper manuals?
 
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JimNH said:
So, when you're all done are you going to post the errata so that I can pencil it into my paper manuals?

Jim,
Sorry, I've found so many little typos, I just fixed them and moved on. At 180 pages, this will be a big enough project, without keeping track of the errors. You will see the significant ones mentioned on this thread. I'll just offer the edited PDF version for anyone who wants it. I will probably post a version once I reach 50 %, so that you can all check my work.
 
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JimNH said:
So, when you're all done are you going to post the errata so that I can pencil it into my paper manuals?

Once I'm done, you can simply print out the pages with corrected errors and put them into your printed version.
 
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JimNH said:
So, when you're all done are you going to post the errata so that I can pencil it into my paper manuals?

Another small error is in Section C25-3 & -4. Both sections refer to removing the oil pump feed gears to re-condition the oil pump. One of the two should state removal of the return gears from the pump. I've sent you a PM, so that I can show you what I'm doing.

Charlie
 
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