1962 650ss Build

Bodger · Friday at 4:28 PM

seanalex said:
Nope. No love.

Spring just unseated again. Beyond pissed now. Wish I still had the old spring I “replaced”

BTW you want to get this right. Otherwise the kickstarter can drop down while you're riding. DAMHIK

seanalex · Friday at 7:33 PM

Schwany said:
That spring looks really wound up to me. You aren't able to wind that spring all the way around the shaft when installing it are you? Probably impossible. It should do the job of returning the kick start just being brought back enough to get it in the last hole it needs to get in. No extra winding. Just a thought

Here is some shade tree engineering thinking. If the kick stroke is shortened does the spring stay in place? You could move the kick start further back on the splines to reduce your typical kick stroke a little. that may be on the borderline of being ridiculous though.

I know the feeling of tossing something out I didn't think I'd need anymore. Not a pleasant one.

So a bit more on this. I turned back the kickstart lever about 30degrees. That has shortened its throw, and seems that the spring is staying retained. I have in the meantime ordered a replacement spring from Baxter's Cycle, and I'm hoping this would be the cure. I'm also using a later Commando Kick arm, not the straight up and down style that was on these early AMC boxes. So my logic that the commando arm has a bit more rotation to it, and Maybe that's why it's popping out.

As for the winding of the spring, I'm now thinking of something else. When I align this, before I set the spring into the case for tension, where should the hole in the shaft be? At present, the hole in the shaft is in the 12 o'clock position, or facing straight up. This means I am bending this spring back a good bit to fit the tang into the case hole.

Rewatching the Hemmings video now, I seems the spring hole on the shaft he's assembling is at about the 9 - 10 o'clock position. This would put a lot less tension on this spring, and maybe that what I need to try.

I'm just confused, because I feel like I'm doing this with the kick plunger spring fully depressed and loaded onto the pawl, just like he does in the video.

This will be one more thing to check in the morning. Good news is, I feel like I can now strip and reassemble a gearbox in about 25mins time. Just need to it work, then that'll be a good claim.

worntorn · Friday at 8:09 PM

Is kickshaft on the early bike the same as in the video?
From what I recall my kicker was just like the video, shaft hole at about 8 or 9 o'clock when against the stop.
It doesn't get a huge preload, as you can see in the video when he uses the puller to hook the other end over the peg.

seanalex · Friday at 8:10 PM

ah, forgot to mention. 1.5 kicks, and it sprung to life today. Kickstart spring broken and all. Really excited to get this going down the road. Heres a really bad video I took. Wasn't expecting it to come to life, had to scramble to get my phone onto video. Hence why the quality is ridiculous.

Video of First Running

Really good oil flowing back to the center tank. A few small drips here and there. Took apart the timing case, and checked chain tension, and properly torqued up the screws to the case. Also had an issue with the float chambers. So took out the "new" viton tipped plug, and threw that immediately in the trash. Replaced it with the original yellow as hell float plug. No more issue.

Scitsu Tach works well, and front light works too. No rear lights yet.

seanalex · Friday at 8:14 PM

worntorn said:
Is kickshaft on the early bike the same as in the video?
From what I recall my kicker was just like the video, shaft hole at about 8 or 9 o'clock when against the stop.
It doesn't get a huge preload, as you can see in the video when he uses the puller to hook the other end over the peg.

No, the early kickers are more up and down. This was before I realized it doesn't work with these rear sets.

worntorn · Friday at 9:09 PM

Sorry, I should have said Kick start shaft.
Is the hole for the spring oriented the same way as the Commando KS shaft in the Hemmings video?
There is only a small amount of spring windup needed in the video.

Bodger · Saturday at 10:25 AM

worntorn said:
Sorry, I should have said Kick start shaft.
Is the hole for the spring oriented the same way as the Commando KS shaft in the Hemmings video?
There is only a small amount of spring windup needed in the video.

I seem to remember it is not. From when I had my issues I seem to remember that switching to a Commando spring required a Commando inner gearbox cover and kickstarter shaft.

worntorn · Saturday at 11:23 AM

The Commando has that peg whereas Sean's bike just has a hole in the case as anchor, so the springs are different.
I wonder if the shafts are the same though? Also, when did Norton add the peg?
Its the other end that is giving trouble but there must have been a reason they added a bit of cost by adding the peg.

Glen

worntorn · Saturday at 11:24 AM

I'll have a look in the parts books.

Glen

worntorn · Saturday at 11:37 AM

Looks like 62 on to the end of the Commandos all used the same KS shaft.
Early slimline FB used the spring like Sean's , late Slimline FB had the peg like the Commando.
So from all of that, I think the hole location in the shaft ought to be aligned the same as in the Hemmings video.

Bodger · Saturday at 1:05 PM

worntorn said:
Looks like 62 on to the end of the Commandos all used the same KS shaft.
Early slimline FB used the spring like Sean's , late Slimline FB had the peg like the Commando.
So from all of that, I think the hole location in the shaft ought to be aligned the same as in the Hemmings video.

Agree about the switch over time line but I seem to remember that the hole in the kickstarter shaft is located differently. I know I've seen a discussion about this. Maybe on the NOC site.

L.A.B. · Saturday at 1:21 PM

KICKSTART SHAFT FITS DOMINATOR AND COMMANDO I.E. ALL AMC GEARBOXES

040477 DOMINATOR/COMMANDO KICKSTART SHAFT WITH BUSH 066169 RGM NORTON

www.rgmnorton.co.uk

"THIS KICKSTART SHAFT IS SUITABLE FOR COMMANDO, ATLAS AND DOMINATOR. THERE ARE 2 SPRING HOLES IN THE SHAFT. THE HOLE NEAREST THE SPLINED END IS FOR COMMANDO. THE HOLE FURTHEST AWAY FROM THE SPLINED END IS FOR DOMINATOR/ATLAS."

Andover Norton - KICKSTART SHAFT & BUSH (04.0477) - 06.6169

KICKSTART SHAFT & BUSH (04.0477)

andover-norton.co.uk

worntorn · Saturday at 2:56 PM

That sorts that!
So if the later type shaft (with one hole) is put in the earlier box, there could be a problem with the return spring function?

Glen

Bodger · Saturday at 4:01 PM

worntorn said:
That sorts that!
So if the later type shaft (with one hole) is put in the earlier box, there could be a problem with the return spring function?

Glen

So now all is revealed. Lol

seanalex · Saturday at 6:44 PM

Bodger said:
So now all is revealed. Lol

But I think these are the aftermarket pattern shafts right? An earlier shaft would still just have one hole, no? Seeing as how the later shaft had yet to be invented.

Isn't this how they kill two birds with one stone?

L.A.B. · Sunday at 4:19 AM

seanalex said:
But I think these are the aftermarket pattern shafts right? An earlier shaft would still just have one hole, no? Seeing as how the later shaft had yet to be invented.

However, your "1962" model's gearbox (NA1001 onwards) should have the later 040477 kickstart shaft, 040475 spring, and 040467 inner cover (with the spring peg) so the question is why doesn't it have the later inner cover unless it's not an actual '62 gearbox?

seanalex · Sunday at 7:42 PM

L.A.B. said:
However, your "1962" model's gearbox (NA1001 onwards) should have the later 040477 kickstart shaft, 040475 spring, and 040467 inner cover (with the spring peg) so the question is why doesn't it have the later inner cover unless it's not an actual '62 gearbox?

thanks for this post. It really stopped me dead in my tracks, and I've been thinking about it for a full day. I don't know how many times this box has been rebuilt, or if there are mismatched parts, or whatever. I have a spare gearbox that I was saving for a future commando build.

Just tore the whole thing down tonight. It is unbelievably better quality inside than the one that came with the 650ss. Washing all the individual parts now, and will put new bearings in. Then will try to swap the box into the frame.

The other thought I had was just trying to use the inner cover with the box thats already in the bike.

IDK, I realize there's a lot of work to go yet with it, but I'm at least feeling more optimistic .

worntorn · Sunday at 8:16 PM

You might already know this- the 650ss mainshaft is different from the Commando mainshaft due to the different clutches.

Glen

seanalex · Sunday at 9:29 PM

worntorn said:
You might already know this- the 650ss mainshaft is different from the Commando mainshaft due to the different clutches.

Glen

I had a funny feeling it wouldn't be that simple.

But could I mix and match the parts from the two different boxes? Like use the Earlier main shaft in the later box?

worntorn · Sunday at 9:33 PM

I believe so although I haven't tried this.
I recall reading that the only difference ( aside from spring, peg etc)
is in the length of the mainshaft on the clutch end. IIRC the Commando shaft is longer for the diaphragm clutch. It also has a circlip to locate the clutch whereas the Dominator has a shoulder.
Is your second gearbox definitely from a Commando?

Glen

1962 650ss Build

Bodger

seanalex

worntorn

seanalex

seanalex

worntorn

Bodger

worntorn

worntorn

worntorn

Bodger

L.A.B.

Moderator

KICKSTART SHAFT FITS DOMINATOR AND COMMANDO I.E. ALL AMC GEARBOXES

Andover Norton - KICKSTART SHAFT & BUSH (04.0477) - 06.6169

worntorn

Bodger

seanalex

L.A.B.

Moderator

seanalex

worntorn

seanalex

worntorn