1954 International Norton - a couple of questions

nomisimon

nomisimon

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Feb 28, 2023
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I'm looking at an International Norton from 1954 built from more than one bike as the engine and frame numbers are different.

The featherbed frame is apparently brazed, rather than welded. This, I was told, meant it was probably a Manx frame. What I'm wondering is, did the factory ever use brazed frames on Inters in 1954?

My other question is, the gearbox is not a match for either the engine or frame number and is a laydown box numbered GB21-B57. Normally Inter boxes are 21-XXX style. So the GB is probably a standard prefix, but why the 'B' in the second part of the number?

I'd appreciate some help on this, thanks.

Simon, UK.
 
bearflag said:
An interesting conversation on the brazing issue here, no conclusion drawn:
https://www.nortonownersclub.org/node/7012
Cheers,
Mike
Click to expand...
Thanks Mike. I've read more on the subject and it seems most of the Inter frames were brazed, some bronze brazed. What I need to do is find out if the frame is a Clubmans frame or just a standard Inter. I don't know how to tell the difference, but have also asked the owners club forum the question.
 
Be patient, they will respond. You will need to apply for the records with photos of the numbers on the bike. Takes time.
 
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bearflag said:
Be patient, they will respond. You will need to apply for the records with photos of the numbers on the bike. Takes time.
Click to expand...
No...I have the owners club printouts of factory records...but they don't answer my question - the ones I posted on here.
 
I've got an early '53 bolt-up 88 Wideline that was arc welded.

All the welds on my bike have very triangular shaped puddles, as does the other, later frame I've got, and some of the other Widelines I've seen. It's not a great puddle shape as it's usually looked at as a sign of too high an amperage, but they seem to have survived this long. If you don't want to strip the paint, perhaps you can tell if the puddle shape is triangular or very round. Brazing would generally be a round shaped puddle, if any at all. Reynolds 531 tubing would not stand up to arc welding, and it would ruin the properties of the alloy.

I'm a professional brazer, so I care about this far more than I should. HA!

Whether the standard road-going Inter frames are brazed or not, I can't tell you, though I've only ever heard of Manxes being such. Either way, it sounds like a fun bike!
 
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t ingermanson said:
I've got an early '53 bolt-up 88 Wideline that was arc welded.

All the welds on my bike have very triangular shaped puddles, as does the other, later frame I've got, and some of the other Widelines I've seen. It's not a great puddle shape as it's usually looked at as a sign of too high an amperage, but they seem to have survived this long. If you don't want to strip the paint, perhaps you can tell if the puddle shape is triangular or very round. Brazing would generally be a round shaped puddle, if any at all. Reynolds 531 tubing would not stand up to arc welding, and it would ruin the properties of the alloy.

I'm a professional brazer, so I care about this far more than I should. HA!

Whether the standard road-going Inter frames are brazed or not, I can't tell you, though I've only ever heard of Manxes being such. Either way, it sounds like a fun bike!
Click to expand...
It's a great bike and I'm picking it up on Wednesday...thanks.
 
A 1954 International is a very rare bike. One of my mates had one in the 1950s. Definitely worth buying. I did not know the Norton road frames were arc welded. They must have been thick-walled mild steel. That is OK, but heavier.
 
acotrel said:
A 1954 International is a very rare bike. One of my mates had one in the 1950s. Definitely worth buying. I did not know the Norton road frames were arc welded. They must have been thick-walled mild steel. That is OK, but heavier.
Click to expand...
Yes, a fantastic bike to now own. The front tyre is an Avon Speedmaster II...but a race tyre, so not road legal. I'll have to buy a new one.
 
Many years ago, one of my mates had a registered long stroke Manx 500, on the road. It was pretty good. It would be possible to build one these days, with the parts which are available. However I do not think many young guys think like that. If you build something like that and keep it, you would be envied when you get old. In 50 years time, what will motorcyclists be riding ? 'Some things are so bad that they are good' ? If I ever take my Seeley 850 to a race meeting, the young guys usually come and go all over it, inspecting everything. It has been built as they were in the old days. It is really nice to look at, if you do not know what is wrong with it. I see it differently from them.
A Seeley Condor might be better.
 
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acotrel said:
Many years ago, one of my mates had a registered long stroke Manx 500, on the road. It was pretty good. It would be possible to build one these days, with the parts which are available. However I do not think many young guys think like that. If you build something like that and keep it, you would be envied when you get old. In 50 years time, what will motorcyclists be riding ? 'Some things are so bad that they are good' ? If I ever take my Seeley 850 to a race meeting, the young guys usually come and go all over it, inspecting everything. It has been built as they were in the old days. It is really nice to look at, if you do not know what is wrong with it. I see it differently from them.
A Seeley Condor might be better.
Click to expand...
Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what the point is that you're trying to make? Please clarify!
 
A 1954 International has the pre-war long-stroke SOHC engine. A modern Manx is DOHC short stroke, but looks remotely similar. That 1954 featherbed Inter was good, but it was never a Manx. If you wanted a really nice sports bike, it could look like a 1954 Inter but be better. It would give you a lovely adrenalin rush. In Australia, there are ways around the registralion rules for classic vehicles. Mostly you need an engineer's certificate.
In modern society, the same ideology always applies - 'the system runs on bullshit and if you have a victim's mindset, you will be a victim'.
The rules are there to stop people from building dangerous vehicles, but there is always opportunity for serious developers to build prototypes and get them into production.
If I was going to do that, I would build the Seeley Condor G50.
 
I think most of the guys on this forum are early in their motorcycling careers. They do not seem to realise the possibilities if they use their imaginations. It is not difficult to make a frame jig, and the rest can be bought. In my shed, i have most of a frame jig and a Chinese 125cc Honda copy motor. Have you seen the 350cc Ala D'Oro Aermacchi ? I am building a 125cc version of it. My grand-kids love motorcycles.
There is a 125cc Chinese motorcycle which has a racing tank and seat which are available as spares.
 
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acotrel said:
A 1954 International has the pre-war long-stroke SOHC engine. A modern Manx is DOHC short stroke, but looks remotely similar. That 1954 featherbed Inter was good, but it was never a Manx. If you wanted a really nice sports bike, it could look like a 1954 Inter but be better. It would give you a lovely adrenalin rush. In Australia, there are ways around the registralion rules for classic vehicles. Mostly you need an engineer's certificate.
In modern society, the same ideology always applies - 'the system runs on bullshit and if you have a victim's mindset, you will be a victim'.
The rules are there to stop people from building dangerous vehicles, but there is always opportunity for serious developers to build prototypes and get them into production.
If I was going to do that, I would build the Seeley Condor G50.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'm okay with the Inter the way it is for now. We'll see how it performs over the coming year.
 
nomisimon said:
I'm looking at an International Norton from 1954 built from more than one bike as the engine and frame numbers are different.

The featherbed frame is apparently brazed, rather than welded. This, I was told, meant it was probably a Manx frame. What I'm wondering is, did the factory ever use brazed frames on Inters in 1954?

My other question is, the gearbox is not a match for either the engine or frame number and is a laydown box numbered GB21-B57. Normally Inter boxes are 21-XXX style. So the GB is probably a standard prefix, but why the 'B' in the second part of the number?

I'd appreciate some help on this, thanks.

Simon, UK.
Click to expand...
G'day Simon, all wideline f'bed frames were SIF bronze WELDED, not brazed. Here is the story about SIF Bronze. SIF Bronze. Suffolk Iron Foundry After outgrowing their original premises and moving to a new 6 acre site, the Suffolk Iron Foundry were approached by a young experimental engineer to supply cast-iron rods containing extra silicon for use in welding cast-iron with an oxy-acetylene flame. Following this, Louis learned of the techniques of low-temperature bronze welding for cast iron which inspired him to develop a rod, which subsequently was found suitable for welding virtually any metal except aluminium. Using the initials SIF from Suffolk Iron Foundry and adding ‘bronze’ the Sifbronze technique was born.
 

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