1913 Truimph side valve engine

B.Rad

Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
287
Hello All. Can somebody please help me here.

Just got asked to repair some stuff off a 1913 Truimph side valve. I cannot get any tech or engine spec information despite some searches.

What I have found out though is that there is a tapered gudgeon pin, (puzzling to me as there must be something more to keep the gudgeon in),one piece con rod with tapered big end eye, tapered steel bush with white metal bore to fit big end journal, cast iron piston etc, ..
This stuff shows its age. it has to be just out of the wrought iron era . fascinating stuff to me.

This engine has had a home made soft gudgeon fitted with about 15 thou clearence. I am not kidding here. also piece broken out of con rod big end eye.
very little documentation. all that is clear from the owner is the date, 1913.

if any one could kindly help out here with any engine related information, drawings, parts numbers or specifications it would be appreciated. or even where to go to find this information.

I have no experience with engines of this era, so any info can only be a plus.
thanks and best wishes to all bradley
 
Re: 1913 Triumph side valve engine

The gudgeon pin should have little press-in brass 'buttons' to go in the ends of the gudgeon pin.
They rub on the cylinder walls, and being soft do no harm.
This system was widely used until gudgeon pin circlips were invented/came into common use.
The big-end should have a bronze bush, someone has been tampering.

Someone in the Historical MC Club in Brisbane could probably help. ?

P.S. Does this thing still have the internal track cams ?
And you may need to check your speeling of Trioomph.

Peter in NZ is the VMCC marque expert on these, and someone in the UK was doing spares for them - but it got a bit much, and he has gone on holiday. ?
The 1910 year Triumph was described in the press as the first production motorcycle that could take more punishment than the rider could, so don't think of them as being fragile in any way. Even if they need servicing by a blacksmith...
 
B.Rad said:
if any one could kindly help out here with any engine related information, drawings, parts numbers or specifications it would be appreciated. or even where to go to find this information.
Click to expand...

Have you tried the UK Triumph Owners' M/C Club (TOMCC) or VMCC?

http://www.tomcc.org/

http://vmcc.net/
 
For info, they will likely just refer you to Peter the VMCC's veteran Triumph marque expert in NZ.
 
Re: 1913 Triumph side valve engine

Rohan said:
The gudgeon pin should have little press-in brass 'buttons' to go in the ends of the gudgeon pin.
They rub on the cylinder walls, and being soft do no harm.
This system was widely used until gudgeon pin circlips were invented/came into common use.
The big-end should have a bronze bush, someone has been tampering.

Someone in the Historical MC Club in Brisbane could probably help. ?

The 1910 year Triumph was described in the press as the first production motorcycle that could take more punishment than the rider could, so don't think of them as being fragile in any way. Even if they need servicing by a blacksmith...
Click to expand...

Hello All. Thank you for your helpful replies.
Rohan, a question about the gudgeon?. the documentation with the engine clearly states the gudgeon is tapered. this means there must be a parrallel portion of the pin to work on the little end bush. if there are buttons, why the taper. they use of a taper here is puzzling, but documentation clearly gives fitting and removal instructions for a tapered gudgeon pin. Due to the damage the repair will be a parallel hole with buttons as you suggested..

Big end. the rod big end bore is roughly tapered to something like 4 Morse in size. there is a steel sleeve with tapered OD about 160 thou wall and the bore is white metalled to run on the big end pin.

Rohan, the steel sleeve looks like too much trouble to have been an modification or repair. Was the big end sleeve all bronze then, one piece tapered OD bronze construction. Or just a bronze bush in the steel sleeve..
I will try to post some photos.

Thanks to all again best wishes Bradley
 
The gudgeon pin is tapered - but not by much.
It will only go in from one side of the piston - and it can only come out from one side of the piston.
I'm sure it needed the brass buttons, if it came loose on the move then tram-tracks are the result...

Someone has white-metalled that big end, they were all bronze when new.
I'll see if I can find more details.

I've seen a roller bearing big end 'upgrade' in a box at a swap, so they were available.
No idea if that was a modern idea, or something from back then.
 
I'm sure many of us would like to see some pictures of this project if possible.
Sounds like a great project bringing a 100 year old engine back to life. A bit jealous here. :mrgreen:

Makes me want to pull the old hit and miss out of the barn and get it going.
I wonder if I could build a bike out of it, hmm.....
 
This is what it is supposed to look like. (with some variations and updates).
This one was on Yesterdays site, for sale.

1913 Truimph side valve engine


A belt drive pedal start 500cc single cylinder sidevalve.
Triumphs own 2 barrel carburettor (one for air, and one for fuel) you juggled them to get a burnable mixture.
One gear only, no clutch, they would pull strongly from about 200 rpm, and get to near 60 mph on a good day - downhill with a following tail wind.
Cycle type brakes on the front rim, and a v-block brake on the rear rim.
Triumphs own rocking front forks design - that spring block sticking out the front is very distinctive. Variable wheelbase, on the fly !
Some about that time had a clutch, operating on the belt rim, and some had 3 speed gears in the rear hub (Sturmey Archer type, like bicycles subsequently had).
This one looks like it has the 3 speed gears, but no clutch, which would be somewhat odd... ?
Hopethishelps, abit.
 
Adrian1 said:
"they would pull strongly from about 200 rpm"

:lol:
Click to expand...
Hello to All. Thanks for all replies. Every bit has been very helpful. Adrian, nothing idles at 200 rpm today let alone pull strongly. A bygone era when life was much simpler. Though much harder too I think.

Rohan, thanks for the picture, it is good to see the rest of the bike. I got this because I muck around with a bit of stuff, just a bit. A bloke asked me for some silver steel to make a gudgeon pin, I said wrong stuff, and it has ended up being a bit more than just a gudgeon pin.
The owner is a nice bloke, but nice intentions can turn into the unexpected. The welding on the con rod for instance.

it is fascinating that these machines were cutting edge stuff. I read in the documentation that the con rod was the " new improved heat treated steel".
This technology was at the forefront of metallurgy. it sounds like the era was just coming out of wrought iron technology. The more I think about this, the subject becomes very interesting.

never worked on anything this old before. Another steep learning curve. I will gratefully accept all the help offered here.

Brett, yes I will have to learn how to post photos. I will have a crack at it.

Thanks to all again best wishes Bradley
 
A good aviation welder could probably do something with that conrod.
They know about how to work with heat treated stuff, and get it back good again.

Phil irving wrote about maybe welding up a conrod to fabricate it, so welding and rods are not necessarily opposites...
 
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