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Your Norton as noisy?

Modern 961 Norton Commando Motorcycles

Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby GKRyder » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:33 pm

bushman wrote:What are the symptoms of the clutch basket issue?
I am finding the take off's are notchy - I can't feather the clutch for a smooth take off, it grabs intermittently, juddering, seems to be getting worse.

Then how does one check for a bad bearing without a full tear down?



Hi ,

Yes. Been there. It's a long read but it may help.

≈≈≈DREAM SEQUENCE≈≈≈≈≈

The symptoms is sounds like mini jack hammer hitting metal under load when warm - and if it's up an incline it sounds pretty 'special'.

It also sounds like it's further forward in the engine (crank). It did to me at least so I checked timing chain tensioner as well.

So:

Went to dealer.
Replaces split gear ring as was just over.
This fixed a different noise that was also there at idle (even with cold oil)

They checked clutch basket this time more to see if was old style.
BUT now I had graunching(squeely) and juddery clutch on take up (first gear stuff)

Went back.
They measured the clutch shaft (as per Richard's recommendation) so I advise that as well.
It was fine.

They noticed clutch baske moving on its rivets (they pulled out and placed on bench. Even light pressure showed this up.)
Replaced clutch basket and found plates were in wrong order from previous booking.

Now...no more jackhammer , "what the f**k is that?" Style noise.
It is still mechanical and mettalic sounds but really is more in keeping with you would think the character would be not "this thing is broken" feeling.
Clutch is no longer grabby or graunching as well. I thought this was fixed from change in oil but no it looks like plates order and possibly wrong movement of basket gone.

Slightly heavier oil and probably would sound like my (newish) Guzzi.

So can symphathise...it's a head ache going back and forwards and project managing dealers sometimes but when you get how you want....it's worth it.

BTW all above can be done by you with Richard's awesome manuals of course. I'm just wanted to use the warranty as well.

Do it man. And then decide if it's a bike to keep.

We all have our limits on type of noise and mine was not sounding healthy (to me).

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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:50 am

Thanks for your input.
Yes, I am prepared to see this through on my own at the moment. I will embark on investigation into the primary, clutch, timing and valves for starters today.
Richards manuals and input has been very helpful and encouraging in that it shows the work is really not a lot different than the rebuild work I have been doing on Norton's for 45 years. I have been building MV Agusta specials for the last while so am right up to speed on new electronics, fuel injection and have full kit of metric tools, special tools, a machine shop and a fabrication shop at hand.
I was telling my wife last night I have a love affair with this bike, even though there are few niggles and bumps in the road at the moment - I am determined to wrestle it to the ground. I know it is going to be worth it.
It is also good to know there is excellent knowledge and support out there at the touch of a keyboard.
Jim Bush, Vancouver, BC
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1971 Norton 750 Interback
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby richard-7 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:14 am

It WILL be worth it!
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:52 am

Update report on investigation into the noisy engine and clutch issue.

Clutch basket is fine, not loose - I suspect the judder issue is the 20W50 oil that I used. I will clean the plates and reinstall with recommended oil.
Valve clearances were spot on - all at 2 1/4turns.
Timing chain is properly tensioned.
Split gear spring had stretched again in 1000miles.
Close look at the crankshaft primary gear shows the teeth have wear signs of hammering - this is also on the balance shaft gear. The clutch gear shows no wear signs.
I measured the clearance between the teeth on the primary gears - I can get a 10 thou feeler gauge in there. They also rock back and forward quite a bit. I am thinking this is the issue.
I have asked Norton Canada and Norton UK about replacing these with a new "matched" pair.
Will see what develops.
Image

Image

Image
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby contours » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:38 pm

bushman wrote:I suspect the judder issue is the 20W50 oil that I used.


Damn! And here I went out and bought 6 quarts of that stuff hoping I could quiet down my primary case! Oh well - I can always use it in my Triumph Speedy or my old Norton Mk3. :roll:
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby NORTY2 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:02 am

bushman wrote:Update report on investigation into the noisy engine and clutch issue.

Clutch basket is fine, not loose - I suspect the judder issue is the 20W50 oil that I used. I will clean the plates and reinstall with recommended oil.
Valve clearances were spot on - all at 2 1/4turns.
Timing chain is properly tensioned.
Split gear spring had stretched again in 1000miles.
Close look at the crankshaft primary gear shows the teeth have wear signs of hammering - this is also on the balance shaft gear. The clutch gear shows no wear signs.
I measured the clearance between the teeth on the primary gears - I can get a 10 thou feeler gauge in there. They also rock back and forward quite a bit. I am thinking this is the issue.
I have asked Norton Canada and Norton UK about replacing these with a new "matched" pair.
Will see what develops.
Image

Image

Image


Hi Bushman. Great info. The judder /graunch on my clutch take up improved slightly when the thicker oil was introduced but now after 1000 miles there is no real noticeable difference between the 10/40 silkolene semi or the 20/50 fully synthetic?? The judder/graunch is back.

I am considering reverting back to the 10/40 and wondering if washing the clutch plates would help?
Did you manage to save the primary case gasket?

I am a plant fitter by trade. Over the past 40 years I have rebuild a Varity of diesel petrol air hydraulic and electric motors but as most will tell you a plant fitters prized tool is his lump hammer. Fine tuning and precision is rarely practiced in my workshop so please bare with me.
Would that 10 thou be taken up when the engine was hot? The wear shown on the teeth in such a low mileage engine seems excessive and could be the cause of the hated chatter?? Have you by chance discovered what all 961 owners have been searching for, a solution to that chatter??

Good luck with the search.
Mark.

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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:14 am

Interesting that your experience is similar to mine. Great initial result, but clutch worsening as time goes by.
I have noticed at a number of my clutch plates are blotchy and have dry patches, not all, about 1/2 or so.
It seems that the thicker oil may have trouble penetrating the clutch pack. Considering the original was in there before I changed, it almost seems that as it is used the plates are drying out, rather than oil replenishing. Maybe it is a tad too thick. Just a thought. The whole idea of using 20w50 was to help with the backlash gear noise - but at the cost of losing the clutch, not worth it.
Obviously some more research on clutch/gear oil.



Image
Last edited by bushman on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jim Bush, Vancouver, BC
2013 961 Norton CR
2016 Thruxton R
2014 MV Agusta F3 800
1971 Norton 750 Interback
1950 Norton ES2
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:26 pm

Here's a quick video of the gear rattle on my 961
phpBB [video]


This is without the split gear/spring, just showing how loose the gear meshing is
I measured 10 thou with a feeler gauge - seems a lot, I am thinking 2-3 thou, or maybe 5 at the most.

Has anyone had their gears changed for similar reasons?
Jim Bush, Vancouver, BC
2013 961 Norton CR
2016 Thruxton R
2014 MV Agusta F3 800
1971 Norton 750 Interback
1950 Norton ES2
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby TonyA » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:01 am

Hello Bushman , I am hearing a similar sound as your gears are making when you rock them back and fourth. I just have my rear wheel off the ground on a stand and put it in first gear and just move the rear wheel back and fourth. I put my ear to the primary and I hear what you are seeing I think. I am approaching 5000 miles so my split gear spring is probably stretched out or maybe never good. Frankly If the spring only lasts 1000 miles when installed properly , that's not too good. So , short of pulling the primary off I can guess what you are seeing is normal and my bike does that too. As far as the chatter and gear teeth marks go , we should ask Richard-7 what his Dad saw when he disassembled his 17,000 mile engine.

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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby richard-7 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:47 pm

He's a phone call away. Pm me for the number.
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:45 pm

I called Dave Coote as Richard suggested, regarding the issue. Dave suggested I check out the balance shaft bearing (the one way on the other side behind the oil pump)
I removed the oil pump, and made a special tool that engages with the balance shaft that is now accessible, so I could rotate it and listen for anything out of the ordinary. You can also use a large flat blade screwdriver.
I sprayed the bearing with brakeclean several times to remove any engine oil.

When I rotated the balance shaft there was a very loud growling sound, which I have captured on you tube video. Clearly the bearing has failed, this also explains the wear pattern on the primary gears.

phpBB [video]


So assessing the situation, I have asked Norton to step up and provide a new bearing, gaskets and a set of new primary gears. My bike is out of warranty, so I am relying on Norton's good will to put this right.

I will have to remove the head, barrels, remove the gearbox and split the inner crankcase to replace this bearing. This can all be done with the engine still in the frame.
It is a pain to do this on a 2600mile bike, but it clearly is an Norton issue.
Last edited by bushman on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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2014 MV Agusta F3 800
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby TonyA » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:59 am

Hello Bushman , That bearing is making a awful sound.

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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:18 am

TonyA wrote:Hello Bushman , I am hearing a similar sound as your gears are making when you rock them back and fourth. I just have my rear wheel off the ground on a stand and put it in first gear and just move the rear wheel back and fourth. I put my ear to the primary and I hear what you are seeing I think. I am approaching 5000 miles so my split gear spring is probably stretched out or maybe never good. Frankly If the spring only lasts 1000 miles when installed properly , that's not too good. So , short of pulling the primary off I can guess what you are seeing is normal and my bike does that too. As far as the chatter and gear teeth marks go , we should ask Richard-7 what his Dad saw when he disassembled his 17,000 mile engine.



This won't be the primary gears making the noise as the split gear and spring tensioner is in place taking up the lash. I had the back gear removed in my video to show the gear lash clearance.
Clutch basket maybe?

I am reminded that there are a lot of these bikes out there presumably without issue..things like the spring should do their job for a good period as long as everything else is in place. In my case the balance shaft bearing failure is the gremlin in the mix. According to Norton Canada, only 2 cases (including mine) of a failed balance shaft bearing so far.
Jim Bush, Vancouver, BC
2013 961 Norton CR
2016 Thruxton R
2014 MV Agusta F3 800
1971 Norton 750 Interback
1950 Norton ES2
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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby TonyA » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:46 pm

Thanks for the clarification. But that is what I was trying to say. I don't think there is any tension left in my split gear spring. I am not to concerned about it right now. I have purchased a couple of split gear springs and when the primary cover comes off I will take care of it. Not during this riding season though , I want to keep riding the thing. Maybe this fall.

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Re: Your Norton as noisy?

Postby bushman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:18 am

When I took the worn spring out there was still tension in the split gear, I doubt if they wear to the point of being slack and the gears rattling around. You probably have other issues?
Clutch basket may be worth a look.
Taking primary cover off is real easy, gasket should be able to be reused, they are very thick.
Jim Bush, Vancouver, BC
2013 961 Norton CR
2016 Thruxton R
2014 MV Agusta F3 800
1971 Norton 750 Interback
1950 Norton ES2
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