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They aren't all in Museums just yet!

They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby worntorn » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:43 am

47 Vincent 238 and my 46 Vincent #38 somewhere along the California coast yesterday, about 1,000 miles from home. Running great, tho I did lose my 2007 Alton charging system about 500 miles back. The problem appears to be a fried solid state Voltage regulator. Will replace with a PODtronics unit at home.
For now, a big batterry in the top box and a charge up at night keeps the sparks flowing.

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Fast Eddie » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:42 pm

worntorn wrote:47 Vincent 238 and my 46 Vincent #38 somewhere along the California coast yesterday, about 1,000 miles from home. Running great, tho I did lose my 2007 Alton charging system about 500 miles back. The problem appears to be a fried solid state Voltage regulator. Will replace with a PODtronics unit at home.
For now, a big batterry in the top box and a charge up at night keeps the sparks flowing.

Image


Great picture. Great post...

But another feather in the cap of the humble magneto eh Glen?!

I also went for electronic set up on mine, I have the Francois Grosset system, which works very well, providing excellent staring etc. The only downside seems to be that if I accidentally leave the ignition switched on, the system won't just flatten the battery, it will burn out the coil! Please do not ask me how I know this.

I am actually a fan of magnetos though. The only reason I decided against one for my Vin was the theory that the second cylinder will never receive 'proper' spark as there is inadequate 'charge time' between the first and second spark.

Is that a theory that you agree with?
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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Rohan » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:44 pm

Fast Eddie wrote:I am actually a fan of magnetos though. The only reason I decided against one for my Vin was the theory that the second cylinder will never receive 'proper' spark as there is inadequate 'charge time' between the first and second spark.


Disconnect No 1 plug lead, and see if the engine runs any better !!!!

Another case of the real world overruling theory.
And then there are early straight 8's and V8's and V12's that ran happily on a maggie, to really ram the point home.

Happy touring guys.

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Johnnymac » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:42 pm

This is great! Well done. Have fun and be safe.
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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby acotrel » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:02 pm

There is such a thing as 'K angle'. It is the point in rotation of the armature where the magnetic effect is greatest in relation to the points opening position, and occurs at 180 degrees armature rotation intervals in most magnetos. On a Vincent the cylinders are not situated to require 360 degree crankshaft degrees firings. Perhaps you need twin magnetos ?
You had better check with Rohan, he thinks I have severe memory loss.
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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Rohan » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:43 pm

Rohan has already commented - or have you forgotten !

V8's and V12's function pretty good on magnetos.
Ask any Merlin.
Thats a lot less dwell and flux than V twins get.
Perhaps they have more magnets...

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Fast Eddie » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:54 pm

Rohan wrote:Rohan has already commented - or have you forgotten !

V8's and V12's function pretty good on magnetos.
Ask any Merlin.
Thats a lot less dwell and flux than V twins get.
Perhaps they have more magnets...

Is it possible that on these V engines, the mags HT leads are wired to cylinders that allow a 180 degree interval?
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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Rohan » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:07 am

If they have 12 cylinders and 360 maggie degrees per 2 engine revs (maggie only spins half engine revs) then they can't all have 180 degrees.

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby skipsoldbikes » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:40 am

The issue of the famous weak spark on the #2 cylinder is so much a general mag problem, its a design issue with the KVF mag used for V-twins.
The Lucas KVF is a great little mag, but was a modified K2F originally designed for an opposed twin mag.
a Vincent Rapide series B has a V angle of 50° so the angles between the ramps on the cam ring need to be at 155 & 205 degrees. two break points 180° apart. The problem is, only one of the ramps on the Vincent cam ring can be made to coincide with a break point. consequently, only one cylinder receives a hot spark where the other cylinder receives a much weaker spark because the points open long after the break point by and the the magnetic field has been collapsing for too long. This is not ideal, and is, probably why starting engines fitted with Lucas KVF magnetos is difficult.

The best article I have fount that explains this in great deal is here:

http://www.themagnetoguys.co.uk/page4.php

The Federal Aviation Administration insists all piston driven aircraft use magnetos rather than electronic ignition (FWIW)

All the best,

Skip Brolund

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Bernhard » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:28 am

Fast Eddie wrote:
Rohan wrote:Rohan has already commented - or have you forgotten !

V8's and V12's function pretty good on magnetos.
Ask any Merlin.
Thats a lot less dwell and flux than V twins get.
Perhaps they have more magnets...

Is it possible that on these V engines, the mags HT leads are wired to cylinders that allow a 180 degree interval?


Not unless you can modify the law of physics :!:
The last Vincent’s off the production line came with coil ignition, and were easier to start then their magneto powered brethren, as they didn’t require starting on the back pot.

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby motoracer8 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:25 am

Yes, I agree they Arn't all in museums yet. I attended a international BSA rally a few weeks ago in Petaluma California where some 220 BSA's from all over the world came together and it seems most if not all were moving under their own power. With the exception of a very old BSA and a couple of race bikes we all gathered in a area for a group photo.

It was very cool as I have never seen that many single mark motorcycles at one time including 19 Gold Stars.

At a motorcycle event at mid Ohio several years ago there was a display of about 50 Vincent's including Rollie Free's bike, more Vincent's than I had ever seen in one gathering as well..

Ride em, don't hide em.
Ride there

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Rohan » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:29 pm

Bernhard wrote:Not unless you can modify the law of physics :!:
.


Easily solved.

A V12 magneto, just after WW1 era.
They knew a thing or 2 back then.
Note the angle of the horseshoe magnet.

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Rohan » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:36 pm

skipsoldbikes wrote:The Federal Aviation Administration insists all piston driven aircraft use magnetos rather than electronic ignition (FWIW)


Not any more they don't.
Modified auto engines for aircraft use are allowed to use leccy ignition.
Provided the alternator keeps alternating, they are at least as reliable as any magneto.

FWIW, local flying instructor here was a member of the dual magneto failure gliding club !

(Aircraft for many years were required to have 2 magnetos, and 2 spark plugs, dual ignition systems in fact, for reliability reasons.
Of course, if one fails and then the other fails before you were back on the ground, it gets interesting).

BTW too, K2F maggies etc provide one positive spark and one negative spark per magneto rev.
We all know that one spark does the spark plug no favours, so where is the benefit in that ??

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby worntorn » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:25 pm

Converted Norton twin point twin coil on engine #38, the bike we are out on right now. It works extremely well, starting is ridiculously easy for a litre v twin.
The bike at home is series c with series D distributor ignition. I do not find that it starts as easily as the twin point bike, however that could be because it has Mikuni carbs vs new Amal Premieres on #38.
The project bike has Pazon Smartfire Special ignition, this is the hotter of the two Vincent two plug head Smartfire ignitions sold by Pazon. It uses two drivers, so it produces twice the spark energy of regular Pazon Smartfiretwo plug. I am praying that it will be an easy bike to start, or at least that it will be possible to start it with the kick start.

Glen

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Re: They aren't all in Museums just yet!

Postby Mark F » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:54 am

Where are you headed Glen? Down the West Coast somewhere? Nothing like being on the road for a bit of quality time with your bike. I don't know about you but I seem to bond with mine. I suppose because you are both depending on each other to get the other home. Strange I know but I don't get that feeling in a car.
Keep the pics coming and try not to think about the Vin in the shed back home. :lol: :lol:
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