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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:46 am

Matt Spencer wrote:How many yards of water pipe did they weld in the Kawa chassis for Enduro Raceing , or was it an Egli Chassis . :roll: :shoc

http://www.kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/3 ... ce-article

"Len Atlee’s Norton Interstate ran out of brakes and crashed after one-and-a-half hours. The eight laps lost in the pits was the exact distance Len lost by at the finish."

http://www.the6hour.com.au/content/history1972.html

1972 , H2750 . Bar some idiot forgetting to put new disc pads in , about even .

After that entries dominated by whizz bangs as far as twins went , like TX 750s . Which fell apart . :?
Machines stripped for measureing PRE race by 75 ./ most were run by ' keen youngh men '.
Some had know n how to build and could be bothered with a British Twin , earlier .
Commercial Pressures and scale / inavailability & indifferance were prime reasons for the demise .

The Kawaskis handling & roadholding attributes .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O--sqoaxgMo
:oops: :shock: :roll: :|


And WHO was responsable for THIS .

http://www.realclassic.co.uk/kawa03110100.html

:lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:



Not sure whether or not the Z1 was ever a bike that was used for enduro racing............maybe a bit on the heavy side? In endurance racing though Z1 powered bikes were probably the most successful ever used, easily able to run for 24 hours most of the time almost flat out.

Endurance racing is a very good measure of the attributes of a road going machine, and anything which handles and goes well enough to succeed here is a very good choice for anyone looking for a road going machine suitable for riding very fast.

The fact that other than Mead and Tomkinson modified A65 BSA twins, no Brit bikes were worthy of mention in this form of racing, is certainly reflective of their longevity on the road if ridden hard.

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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:49 am

hobot wrote:My Ms Peel is meant to wipe the smirks off the lips of the likes of ole Carbon. It will be a special of course but still at base design in chassis to engine it'll be all Norton on skinny tires. But in real life with a real daily used Commando its a constant mantaince headache so its some bragging right to keep nursing em along. Not too bad for such and ancient design and tooling. Too bad the newbie being offered ain't in super bike class nor even out there yet to tell how they'll last.



If your bike is that much better than anything built before, then why not enter some competition events on it and show all those "corner cripplers" just how well a properly engineered Brit bike can go?

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Re: In the real world

Postby splatt » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:07 am

The fact that other than Mead and Tomkinson modified A65 BSA twins, no Brit bikes were worthy of mention in this form of racing, is certainly reflective of their longevity on the road if ridden hard.[/quote]

Were triples not made in Britain?
Remember, Geebuz saves, warning level (1)

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Re: In the real world

Postby ebsbury » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:14 am

Carbonfibre wrote:[quote="The fact that other than Mead and Tomkinson modified A65 BSA twins, no Brit bikes were worthy of mention in this form of racing, is certainly reflective of their longevity on the road if ridden hard.


I think you mean the Mead & Tomkinson B44/B50 singles which were successful in the Barcelona 24hrs in the early 1970s. Why is that more significant than the victories by Commandos in the Thruxton 500 - the pre-eminent UK endurance event in the same period?

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Re: In the real world

Postby Matt Spencer » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:20 am

Cobblers .

http://vroum52.com/mcl.html

How long wouldve the miscreant workers survived under Stalin .
Would they have been capeable of building motorcycles in Siberia .
Were they capeable of building motorcyles at all .
Was it a ' equal oppertunities ' workplace.
Were they all at the Pub .

Be fascinateing to inspect ' The Books ' / costings .
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:27 am

ebsbury wrote:
Carbonfibre wrote:[quote="The fact that other than Mead and Tomkinson modified A65 BSA twins, no Brit bikes were worthy of mention in this form of racing, is certainly reflective of their longevity on the road if ridden hard.


I think you mean the Mead & Tomkinson B44/B50 singles which were successful in the Barcelona 24hrs in the early 1970s. Why is that more significant than the victories by Commandos in the Thruxton 500 - the pre-eminent UK endurance event in the same period?



Yes you are right they were singles............As to the Thruxton 500 the last time this was run was in 73, so not sure that many endurance kitted Z1's were entered?

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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:30 am

splatt wrote:The fact that other than Mead and Tomkinson modified A65 BSA twins, no Brit bikes were worthy of mention in this form of racing, is certainly reflective of their longevity on the road if ridden hard.


Were triples not made in Britain?[/quote]

Not completely sure whether the triples had many wins in endurance racing, although they did win Daytona which was quite an achievement as they were racing against some very serious works machinery with top riders on them.

http://www.sdmcc.net/history/results.html makes for interesting reading, 74 Thruxton race was won by one of those evil handling Kaw triples, and 73 was the last time any Brit bike finished top 3 at Thruxton................seems very strange as the Commando must have been far superior to Jap rubbish like Honda RCB etc etc.............

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Re: In the real world

Postby Matt Spencer » Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:10 am

Indeed , the BSA was basically a B50 MX . GOLD STAR . Unit !

The mags in the day had articals on where to weld in a few pair of tube ' triangulation ' braces to the Z1s ,
and go over the welds , and throw a few extrta gussets in . To tame , not ' perfect ' the WOBBLES . :shock:

Was standard practise on the Yoshimura's , the Aus or Kiwi Mag also had a ' How To ' BRACE the Frame artical .
Alledgedly the ones in the cult wierdo ' STONE ' movvie were done thus .
Though in the scene where he ' lays down ' the Commando , you can pick its deliberate , AND he's cornering
visably faster than the Kwacker siki's that are pulling away from him . How Unusual . Just Like C H I P S .
Thats ' the movies ' for you .

The pommy enduro suckers are on the link above .

XT 650s , ended up in gutters trying to stay with Triumphs at CRUISEING speeds , in the sticks . Even old 50s ones .
Some morons thought Mitsubushi V 3000 V^ front wheel drive were remarkeable cars . An idiot from the city thought it impressive one hadnt been able to get near his Commando when it was stolen . Itd probably keep up with a XS 650 the
same morons thpought excellent .A push bike would out corner one down hill . Most sane people would fall over laughing.
Unfortunately , the traffic patrols had them and thought anything that didnt go of the road under brakeing was dangerous .

The 1951 Rover 75 was considerably more competant and manouvreable than a CB 500 or KZ 750 at speed . It payed to
leave the rice burners a bit of road as they were prone to be unpredictable approaching the limits , were a evolved design of known parantage could well maintain its balance and poise if unleashed .

Provided no incompatants had been near it with a spanner .

Thruxton being an airfield tends to be fairly flat and smooth . The did well in the I.o.M. that year , no doubt , why even a mankey TR 750 lost to the F1 Commando . :lol: :shock: :P

Honda developed the Bol Dor 900 from their Endurance Race Specials . Com Star wheels ! :shock:
Brother the Aircraft Mechanic , MX maniac ( you land on the third whoop right , and then the fifth , stadium style ) employee of several motorcycle outfits as wrench ( Ft Lb calibrated fingertips . NEVER use a Tourque Wrench . Theyre too inaccurate )Starting with Comunist Bonnevilles and Ducati bevels , later all the big aussie rice burners and all else besides ,
Maniac seweed ( surfer " ah a storm , wheres my surfboard , theyrell be some good waves ' ) Mechanic at Vinsons Suzuki in the GSX era , thought the 900 Bol Dor he ran in aus , reliable , but it doesnt handle .2nds and 3rds raceing against RG 500s on the 1100 Katana , though he tended to keep the wheels on the deck , with that . His opinion confirmed what any observer who wasnt preoccupied with chassis misdemeanours in bends had wittnessed, even from a ROVER . ! :lol:

Leading as to the ' CB 1100 R ' :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :wink: I think even honda were embarresed about that one. Carved one up on the T100R triton . Poms tried to convince people they were marvellous , as did the MD of Honda NZ.
Nobody believed him.
He learned to keep quiet .
Unlike the V 3000 crowd .
Theyd all be melted down now .
Only problem is , the barsterum keep remoulding them into new and wonderous rice burners and sending them back for gullible people to spend the hard erned missgotten gains on .

Have they used all the real steel in england , or is there some left for US . :)
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
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Re: In the real world

Postby Matt Spencer » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:00 am

The RCB Honda endurance thingo was basically a twin cam in a near DOMIRACER ( 1961 NORTON ) Frame . the ' Bol dor ' wasnt, really . :(

Can get a 1100 KZ shaft drive , for 1500 , which I thought was a bit steep . Do the Chain Drive bits bolt on , or do you need a disc grinder , C.F. ? ?
Mightnt be a bad idea , could probly swap it for a decent bike , the KZ seems fairly oilly ,outside . At least its stopped it RUSTING . :D :lol: :lol: :wink:
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
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Re: In the real world

Postby splatt » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:16 am

http://www.sdmcc.net/history/results.html makes for interesting reading, 74 Thruxton race was won by one of those evil handling Kaw triples, and 73 was the last time any Brit bike finished top 3 at Thruxton................seems very strange as the Commando must have been far superior to Jap rubbish like Honda RCB etc etc.............[/quote]

There you go again,74 2nd & 3rd behind the evil kawasaki, triumph, should also be remembered about 73 the british factories withdrew most of their support to racing
Remember, Geebuz saves, warning level (1)

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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:27 am

Matt Spencer wrote:The RCB Honda endurance thingo was basically a twin cam in a near DOMIRACER ( 1961 NORTON ) Frame . the ' Bol dor ' wasnt, really . :(

Can get a 1100 KZ shaft drive , for 1500 , which I thought was a bit steep . Do the Chain Drive bits bolt on , or do you need a disc grinder , C.F. ? ?
Mightnt be a bad idea , could probly swap it for a decent bike , the KZ seems fairly oilly ,outside . At least its stopped it RUSTING . :D :lol: :lol: :wink:



Lol................I think the power produced by an RCB Honda would have made for very interesting handling if it had used a Featherbed frame!

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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:29 am

splatt wrote:http://www.sdmcc.net/history/results.html makes for interesting reading, 74 Thruxton race was won by one of those evil handling Kaw triples, and 73 was the last time any Brit bike finished top 3 at Thruxton................seems very strange as the Commando must have been far superior to Jap rubbish like Honda RCB etc etc.............


There you go again,74 2nd & 3rd behind the evil kawasaki, triumph, should also be remembered about 73 the british factories withdrew most of their support to racing[/quote]


A good result for Triumph, which out of all the Brit factories seems to have been the most successful bike in the longer distance races denoted on that link.

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Re: In the real world

Postby Carbonfibre » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:38 am

Matt Spencer wrote:Indeed , the BSA was basically a B50 MX . GOLD STAR . Unit !

The mags in the day had articals on where to weld in a few pair of tube ' triangulation ' braces to the Z1s ,
and go over the welds , and throw a few extrta gussets in . To tame , not ' perfect ' the WOBBLES . :shock:

Was standard practise on the Yoshimura's , the Aus or Kiwi Mag also had a ' How To ' BRACE the Frame artical .
Alledgedly the ones in the cult wierdo ' STONE ' movvie were done thus .
Though in the scene where he ' lays down ' the Commando , you can pick its deliberate , AND he's cornering
visably faster than the Kwacker siki's that are pulling away from him . How Unusual . Just Like C H I P S .
Thats ' the movies ' for you .

The pommy enduro suckers are on the link above .

XT 650s , ended up in gutters trying to stay with Triumphs at CRUISEING speeds , in the sticks . Even old 50s ones .
Some morons thought Mitsubushi V 3000 V^ front wheel drive were remarkeable cars . An idiot from the city thought it impressive one hadnt been able to get near his Commando when it was stolen . Itd probably keep up with a XS 650 the
same morons thpought excellent .A push bike would out corner one down hill . Most sane people would fall over laughing.
Unfortunately , the traffic patrols had them and thought anything that didnt go of the road under brakeing was dangerous .

The 1951 Rover 75 was considerably more competant and manouvreable than a CB 500 or KZ 750 at speed . It payed to
leave the rice burners a bit of road as they were prone to be unpredictable approaching the limits , were a evolved design of known parantage could well maintain its balance and poise if unleashed .

Provided no incompatants had been near it with a spanner .

Thruxton being an airfield tends to be fairly flat and smooth . The did well in the I.o.M. that year , no doubt , why even a mankey TR 750 lost to the F1 Commando . :lol: :shock: :P

Honda developed the Bol Dor 900 from their Endurance Race Specials . Com Star wheels ! :shock:
Brother the Aircraft Mechanic , MX maniac ( you land on the third whoop right , and then the fifth , stadium style ) employee of several motorcycle outfits as wrench ( Ft Lb calibrated fingertips . NEVER use a Tourque Wrench . Theyre too inaccurate )Starting with Comunist Bonnevilles and Ducati bevels , later all the big aussie rice burners and all else besides ,
Maniac seweed ( surfer " ah a storm , wheres my surfboard , theyrell be some good waves ' ) Mechanic at Vinsons Suzuki in the GSX era , thought the 900 Bol Dor he ran in aus , reliable , but it doesnt handle .2nds and 3rds raceing against RG 500s on the 1100 Katana , though he tended to keep the wheels on the deck , with that . His opinion confirmed what any observer who wasnt preoccupied with chassis misdemeanours in bends had wittnessed, even from a ROVER . ! :lol:

Leading as to the ' CB 1100 R ' :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :wink: I think even honda were embarresed about that one. Carved one up on the T100R triton . Poms tried to convince people they were marvellous , as did the MD of Honda NZ.
Nobody believed him.
He learned to keep quiet .
Unlike the V 3000 crowd .
Theyd all be melted down now .
Only problem is , the barsterum keep remoulding them into new and wonderous rice burners and sending them back for gullible people to spend the hard erned missgotten gains on .

Have they used all the real steel in england , or is there some left for US . :)



Even more waffle wont detract from the fact that Jap endurance racers based on stock road going machinery won an awful lot of high profile races, which tended to sell a lot more bikes than BS magazine tests with 1/4 mile times set by machines with full race motors running on alcohol fuels! The old saying that "When the flag drops the BS stops" is appropriate here, and all the race wins by Jap bikes with very basic modifications tends to suggest they certainly handled well enough to win races, against Brits which according to posters on here, had more power and handled far better.

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Re: In the real world

Postby Matt Spencer » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:51 pm

http://i10.servimg.com/u/f10/14/50/83/33/1976_l10.jpg

Right . Shes just about standard . Grow a brain cell .

Raceing is cubic dollars . the asians were paying by then .

Its obvious the tur*s were at the pub more than on the spanners , they needed bikes that came in the cornflakes by that era.

Never realised the hideous barges of excess eleves were the creme de la creme .The one the Commando matched after
the Commando was detuned ended up haveing the engine fall out after it hit a kerb in the wet , slideing out on the road
slime through a intersection . Was still on H.P. after two years .

I think the only thing running on Alcohol is carbon .

Id say M.M.s 12.2 for a Combat on 19 T isnt too far off . If they knew how to ride .

The average pillock never realised a tecnique was required to get the throttle on the stop on a Commando .
And as for Z1s , there about as fast as a worked 650 Bonneville , and steer comparrably to the 1961 version.
A lot better than a XT 650 .
If you hear a twin & it sounds like its doing 90 , look and its doing 45 . ITs a Yamaha . Grow Up . :roll:
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
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Re: In the real world

Postby Matt Spencer » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:59 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8b6r3B8dr0

What ever will they think off next . :shock: :?

" The REAL WORLD " to a out of towner , is mud tracks , gravle roads , milk tankers and cattle trucks , straying stock, etc .

The Relevance of optimum drag times isnt quite of prime consideration . Though tecnique is optimised if evadeing
thugs hoodlums and theives in ' the big smoke ' .
The relevancy of a NON road ' race course ' is somewhat remote , though the sanctioned ' Road Course ' on a few of the seasons meetings are . Noteably the whiners petition the Councils to remove the bumps and irregularites the transverse
fours find so difficult to deal with . . . .

No longer ' Real world ' then . . . Obviously .

The main problem of the British industry was Shoddy Workmanship , lack of attention to detail . I would have said .
But Generall Shoddyness and conciet could be construed as a national characteristic , among others , unless the situation
DEMANDS selfless dedication . Such as in the Battle of Britain , though most of the pilots were forigners . . .

Brothers tenure as M'Cycle Mech had " they ALL have four to Six FAULTS " regarding the Meirdan left foot Triumphs .
On the Dealer ' pre sale ' inspection and set up . Had a few blow ups , Autopsy reavealed incorrect Crank Machineing or
incorrect rod bolt fitting , so warrenty was honoured , rather than ' Blame the Rider ' .
Just minor nigling things due to lack of attention to detail " As if they Didnt Care " . Time consumeing nevertheless .

Two to Four hours Charge Out , as once youd found a few wierd irregularities on one , you start to get concerned that
it was the general theme on that one , and have to go over it very thoroughly. " Almost as if theyd sabotaged some of them "

The Ducati ( bevel ) riders would go there for ' Free Advice ' as to what parts to get , from the distributor . As the bits were cheap . Mix'n' match , you could make something ut of one . Ducati paid attention to machineing quality , but you got what you were given , as far as a new bike went . There was room for improvement & updates in the secification of minor items that payed dividends as far as reliability and performance went .You got what you paid for , a lot of Potential .And several
rough edges , cosmetically .

The Average entusiast In N.Z. would check his machine ( Norton ) after serviceing .One bloke I met sayed he'd set it ALL
spot on before service . ( Dealer for New Bike Warrenty ) Two Hours work after collecting , as it came back with Near Everything ( everything theyd done ) maladjusted .

Moral ? Do it yourself or get a Aircraft Mechanic if you must . But it wont go right if the Mechanic Doesnt give a Sh:t .

And if they insist on paying the workers less than they can reasonably live on , there minds NOT going to be on the job ,
or there state of mind conductive to good workmanship .The majority of machines made in the 50s were to a somewhat
more faultless standard .
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
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