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The 650 Norton thread

Norton Models (not Commando or P11)

Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby texasSlick » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:42 am

robs ss wrote:G'day Norton riders
This is my first post to any forum, let alone this one - I have stalked a few though!
I am underway with my second restoration, the first being my father's 1962 Model 50. This time it's my preferred choice - 650SS (1964 - would have preferred Bracebridge St but Plumstead will have to do)
My specific question to you is, as my cylinder barrel has broken fins (yes - bottom ones near front) I am considering replacement.
Atlas ones seem to be more readily available so - is is advisable to re-sleeve an atlas barrel to 650 bore?
FYI - mine has the spigotted mating with head
Best regards
Rob


Fins can be repaired. Impossible to tell after painting.

I think (think means not positively sure) Atlas barrels will not fit the 650 head as some of the bolts were moved outwards. Verify before purchasing Atlas barrels.

You could fit an Atlas head to the Atlas barrels, then fit proper sized pistons. You would then have a 750SS, or would it be an Atlas?

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby BillT » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:43 pm

In 1966-67, the 750SS was actually a re-badged G15/33CSR!

I've never seen one in person, only a couple of ads from that period, and don't know how many were ever sold (likely just a few)

This was the hybrid with the AMC chassis, Norton forks and wheels, and Atlas engine. The difference between a CS and CSR was the CS was a Scrambler, while the CSR was a cafe bike (CSR supposedly meant Competition, Sprung (swing arm), Road, but was often called a Coffee Shop Racer)

CSRs typically came with chrome headlight, chrome tank, swept-back pipes, low bars, and rearsets with a reverse camplate in the gearbox. These specs changed over the run of CSRs, and were mainly sold in the home market

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G15CSR

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G15CS (my 67!)
'73 Norton 850 Commando - 3030xx
'69 Norton Ranger 750 - P11/1289xx
'67 Matchless G15CS - G15CS/1235xx
'61 Matchless G80CS - 61/G80CS/41xx
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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby Rohan » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:02 pm

The history books are saying that the 750cc Norton was announced as a 750SS at the launch,
but by the time they appeared in the metal in 1962 they were being called an Atlas.

Anyone have any press clippings etc to show this ?

We diverge....

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby Matchless » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:31 pm

Robs ss wrote:

G'day Norton riders
This is my first post to any forum, let alone this one - I have stalked a few though!
I am underway with my second restoration, the first being my father's 1962 Model 50. This time it's my preferred choice - 650SS (1964 - would have preferred Bracebridge St but Plumstead will have to do)
My specific question to you is, as my cylinder barrel has broken fins (yes - bottom ones near front) I am considering replacement.
Atlas ones seem to be more readily available so - is is advisable to re-sleeve an atlas barrel to 650 bore?
FYI - mine has the spigoted mating with head
Best regards
Rob


I don't think 750 barrels will fit the 650 crankcase. The Atlas cases had the breather moved to the side of the drive side case instead of the rear. This was to accommodate the bigger mouth needed for the larger liners. Without this the breather tunnel would be breached.
Broken fins are an easy repair, & with 650 barrels being as rare as rocking horse sh#*, well worth it.

Martyn.




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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby wilkey113 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:16 pm

Martyn,
Welcome to the forum. You'll need to repair your 650 cylinder, as the Atlas mounting bolts are a smaller size and moved out to accommodate the larger bore. Therefore, your head, will not bolt up to your cylinder.

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby robs ss » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:10 pm

I am in the process of fitting the barrel to the crankcases and have a question.
I have "flattened" the crankcase mouth using a sheet of glass and abrasive sheets (180 grit then 360) and counterbored all threads.
Currently performing the slow and painful task of scraping and filing the mating surface of the barrel using engineers blue.
Started with many gaps up to 8 thou.
Now have only 2 gaps, one in front of the front centre stud (2-3 thou over width of 25mm) and at the front LH corner 5/16" stud (2 thou over width of 20mm)
The further I go the harder it gets as metal needs to be removed over a larger area whilst keeping it flat.
My question is, what gap is considered good practice?
I have read the various threads on merits of base gaskets and "goop" but couldn't find anything quantifying barrel-crank fit.
My current plan is to not fit a gasket and use Threebond grey (worked well on my short-stroke ES2)
Cheers
Rob
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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby texasSlick » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:25 pm

robs ss wrote:My question is, what gap is considered good practice?

My current plan is to not fit a gasket and use Threebond grey (worked well on my short-stroke ES2)
Cheers
Rob


I would think silk thread (if memory serves, #4) in conjunction with Hylomar or similar "goop" would be adequate to make a good seal.

Sorry, I cannot give you a link on silk thread technique at this time. PM me if necessary.

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby robs ss » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:28 pm

Thanks Slick. I had not heard of silk thread below. I looked it up on some aircraft forums and found it is used to prevent the gasket compound (goop) from being completely squeeze out of a gasket less joint.
Sounds sensible, so long as the resultant film, including silk, is not compressible over time (loosen nuts on studs)
Cheers
Rob
PS - I'll try to attach photo of the ES2 - nope, no luck!
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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby texasSlick » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:52 am

robs ss wrote:. I looked it up on some aircraft forums and found it is used to prevent the gasket compound (goop) from being completely squeeze out of a gasket less joint.
Sounds sensible, so long as the resultant film, including silk, is not compressible over time (loosen nuts on studs)
Cheers
Rob
!


Silk can be used with gaskets as well. Use on side with scored or damaged surface, or both sides.

I know of no issues regarding loosening of nuts/bolts. Silk is the "de riguer" gasket treatment in aircraft engines. Of course, aircraft engines always have security on all fasteners, but if compression we're an issue, it would still occur with secure fasteners. I surmise your worry is that a re-torque would be necessary. In short, I do not think it is an issue.

Slick
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The Second Law (of thermodynamics) rules.
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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby annajeannette » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:14 am

beng wrote:
acotrel wrote:I don't know what barrels fit the 650 Norton bottom end, I don't think any other early Norton had twin carbs ?


The 650cc Norton would accept the parts of any earlier Norton Dominator engine, 750 cylinders/heads will not fit though as to accommodate the larger bore the four rear cylinder studs were moved back and the oil drain-back from the head was relocated, the four main head bolts of the 750 were made smaller in diameter and moved outwards too.

The first regular production Norton twin with twin carburettors would be the Model 99 Nomad Scrambler which was built from 1958-1960, twin carbs were also an option on very late 50s wideline Dominators though.
The 650 Manxman was the first model with the 89mm stroke crank and 1 3/4" crankpins though and the down-draught head. The Atlas and 750/850 Commando were the same as the 650 except for the changes necessary to increase the bore from 68mm to 73/77mm.

The 650 Norton got it's legendary reputation for a few reasons. It was first only available to the USA, which gave it a bit of mystery in it's home market, then when it appeared for sale in the U.K. labeled as the 650ss it tested in magazines at a higher performance all around than the Triumph Bonneville. When the Atlas initially came out in the USA, then in the U.K. a year or so later, it not only had a much lower compression ratio, but was initially supplied with a single carb, so it was not aimed at the performance crowd, plus it's heavier pistons made it shake a bit more too.

Once the Atlas came out in late 62' the 650 was not marketed in the USA too much and sales were very small in comparison. Since the Atlas was not available in the U.K. until 64' the 650ss stayed at the top of the Norton range there and did really well in racing.

Dunstall and others eventually got the bugs out of the 750 and made it fly, but when the Commando came out for 1968 with improvements in it's engine for durability and a lot of marketing hype, the 650ss and 750 featherbed bikes were pushed out of the limelight and faded away.

The motorcycling enthusiasts of the early 60s never heard anything but praise for the 650ss, while the 750 Atlas had a reputation of being slower, vibrating more and having a few bugs like blowing head gaskets and weak cylinders.

So the 650 Norton was a unique package of power and handling just long enough for enthusiasts to notice it's successor's were not so well rounded in comparison. It was the high-point and flag-ship of the original Norton works which was dissolved after 1962.

Presently any 650 Norton is a rare bike. They were made in low numbers to begin with, used hard and blown up then used as raw material for the making of various specials. Any that are left intact are much harder to find top-end parts for than the later 750/850 bikes. Aside from the small bore, most any Commando upgrades/parts will fit giving similar performance and power/reliability.

Some year-by-year 650 Norton facts:

1961 - First official model year. Almost all of 1961 production sent to the USA with the bikes painted almost all blue with red seat covers, small capacity fuel tank, seat moved forwards to suit. Introduced as the "Manxman".

1962 - initial production still sent to USA in the form of all blue/red seat Manxman bikes. 99 of the first 100 650ss bikes were sent to the USA, About half of them looked identical to a Manxman except for having black seats and engines stamped 650ss above the crankcase breather, the other half were still blue but had black frames and seats. Some later 650ss bikes shipped to the usa had the small Manxman tank but the black/silver paint. First year for 650ss and ONLY year it was produced at the original Norton works, a special bike....

About 560 650 Nortons were made before 650ss production kicked in for the 1962 model year, these were the original usa Manxman bikes, by the end of 1962 a bit over 2000 650 Nortons were made at the original Norton works before they were shut down, rare bikes....

1963 - Production small due to parent company AMC abandoning the original Norton works and laying off all workers, moving production to the Matchless works. Specification very similar to 1962 models while AMC used up old Norton stocks of parts. I am not sure at this point if any of the bikes made at the original Norton works late in 1962 were manufactured as 1963 bikes, it may have happened, the Norton records hold the answers.

1964 - 650ss as previous except for many small detail changes to cut production costs. Previous satin-chromed/show chromed hardware largely eliminated for zinc/cad plating. Steering-stop welded on instead of bolt-on. fuel tank filler moved to right side of fuel tank. Smiths Chronometric instruments replaced with magnetic grey-face. Parts detail, material changes from use of new machinery, tooling and jigs too many to list. The later AMC Dominators were not any less functional than before, they were just not to as high a finish and looked a bit more like consumer goods than works of art.

1966 - Continued changes. Upper rear engine plate mounting welded in instead of through-bolted. Oiling system improved with double-speed oil pump gears, larger oilways and pressure-fed rocker arm spindles. Spigot sealing cylinder to head eliminated.

1967- onwards. Amal Concentric carbs phased into production. Head castings same yearly as Atlas and Commando just machined differently for smaller bore etc.. Last hurrah is the single-carb Mercury touring bike sold through 1970, oddly outlasting all other pre-Commando Norton models.



HERE SOME NORTON FACTORY RECORD FACTS THE FIRST BATCH OF 650s WERE BUILT FROM NOVEMBER 7th 1960 FROM NUMBER 18-93601 shop number 7 it was pulled off the line before the shop number was stamped on and shop numbers are not in numerical running order . So Number 18-93602 was shop stamped number 1 the model stamp number was 65 or 65c custom or not has standard with extra parts fitted or altered by Norton has customers has asked for at the time, the Rarest 650 Norton's Are NORTON MANXMAN , STANDARD AND NORTON DE_LUX, 650 De-lux Stamped marked 18D on the outside of the left-hand crankcase these Norton had a short build run, less than 600 built most of the Standard and De-lux models were exported to Iron curtain country's

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby norton_rider » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:57 pm

anyone using Venhill throttle cables if so which one did you order for twin concentric amals on a 650ss / atlas :) they were a bit confused with there own cables as to which ones are mono bloc and concentric


Cheers,

Tom
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norton 650ss 1966, triumph 675 race bike

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby robs ss » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:19 am

I bought the Venhills cable making kit a few years ago and have found it to be excellent value for me and my friends.
It covers all the cable types and different ends - even warns of importance to "birds nest" inners in high tension cables (brake, clutch)
All in all I have found it excellent and comforting in case of a failure
Cheers
Rob
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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby robs ss » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:51 pm

Looking for advice on a 650ss head (1964)
Looking down the exhaust ports I notice a lump in the lower inside quarter of both ports (see photo of LH port)
Anyone else notice this? May be extra material to cover the head-barrel stud below exhaust port?
The lumps can't be good for gas flow.
Anyone tried grinding them off? Risk of breaking through to stud??
Cheers
Rob
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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby Rohan » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:19 pm

Measure the performance before you grind it off,
and then measure the performance and see how much you lose !

The Commando page has extensive chat on the smaller ports used in the newly cast Fullauto cyl heads,
and how beneficial this has been. Bigger is not always better in the world of gas flow, it seems ...

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Re: The 650 Norton thread

Postby robs ss » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:53 pm

Yep - I'm aware or that.
There was a George Mansfield (Meszlenyi) in the UK (unfortunately died 2006) was producing ports similar to Fullauto well prior to their existence (see photo below)
So there is no doubt filling in the floor of the port is beneficial - I don't intend to go to this extent (yet)
My query was whether this bump was unique to my head and, if not , what others may have done about them, if anything.
Cheers
Rob
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