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T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Rohan » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:41 pm

The G15CSR/33CSR use a unique gearbox with a reversed cam plate and outer cover, to keep the standard AMC 1-up, 3-down shift pattern, and indicate the proper gear with the pointer.

Acebars wrote:Just brilliant, is it not 1-up then down on the other atlas powered bikes?


It is - but note that the G15CSR bike (pictured) has the gear lever REVERSED in that pic, and the shift pattern is still the same.
That takes a bit of jiggery pokery in the box to do that...

Acebars wrote:Aren't the Ranger, P11, G15/N15 all the same or very similar frames?
So similar handling characteristics?


No.
Note that the G15CSR (pictured there) uses Matchless's old lugged style frame.

The P11 and some of the others mentioned uses Matchless's all-welded competition dirt bike frames.
Chalk and cheese... ?

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Acebars » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:51 pm

These days, it's very trendy to have a Triumph engine in a Featherbed frame. So, to the original post's title, THAT'S why.


I pretty much came to that conclusion as well.. not a trend I wish to follow.

No.
Note that the G15CSR (pictured there) uses Matchless's old lugged style frame.

The P11 and some of the others mentioned uses Matchless's all-welded competition dirt bike frames.
Chalk and cheese... ?


Ah thank you for enlightening me, that explains why the P11 is so much more expensive than a G15 CSR I was scratching my head over that, thought they were the same frame, well I think I'll be quite happy with the old G15 CSR frame.

It is - but note that the G15CSR bike (pictured) has the gear lever REVERSED in that pic, and the shift pattern is still the same.
That takes a bit of jiggery pokery in the box to do that...


Ah I see now, I like it like it a lot, kind of a half way between rearsets! Hmmm but no rear pegs? So no pillion?

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby BillT » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:45 pm

The G15/N15/33 machines used the frame that started with the Matchless G12
Image
G15CS frame

The P11/P11A/Ranger frame is a very slightly modified G85 frame, built by Reynolds
Image
Ranger frame

There are plenty of pictures to be found of the wideline and slimline featherbed frames.
'73 Norton 850 Commando - 3030xx
'69 Norton Ranger 750 - P11/1289xx
'67 Matchless G15CS - G15CS/1235xx
'61 Matchless G80CS - 61/G80CS/41xx
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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Acebars » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:58 am

Thanks for those photos Bill, simply beautiful bikes both of them.

Will let you know when I get mine in the garage, can't wait. :)

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby mdt-son » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:36 am

BillT wrote: The P11/P11A/Ranger frame is a very slightly modified G85 frame, built by Reynolds


Incorrect. All G85CS and P11 frames were built in-house, using Reynolds 531 tubing.
R531 is an alloy optimized for brazing (welding wil distroy the fine material properties) so all G85/P11 frame joints are brazed.

Actually, all heavyweight frames bade by Matchless right up to end of line (1968/69) were brazed. I can't comment on the lightweights.

-Knut
Assorted '60s Matchless models
'75 Norton Commando Mk3 (coming together)

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Rohan » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:04 pm

Check your facts Knut ?
Matchless and Ajay compy frames were welded, from the mid 1950s.
Plain steel tubing, and plain steel welding.

It has previously been discussed here the difference between brazing and bronze welding.
In common use, 'brazing' is only using brass - and is not suitable for 531 tubing.
Bronze welding using gas (oxy) can be built up into fillets, and was used for the 531 built frames.

The discussion about Reynolds building 531 frames for P11's etc hasn't been had yet.
AMC didn't have the welding facilities to build them in bulk... ??

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby acotrel » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:31 am

I notice the Ranger frame picks up both ends of the swinging arm - might not have a hinge in the middle like those disgusting AMC frames ? Pre-unit Triumphs, and those early matchlesses were beautiful to ride if you pushed them hard. You'd have to be numb in the head if you couldn't feel the seat tube twisting - great confidence destroyer. A swing arm B33 BSA frame, a featherbed, Royal Enfield Bullet or a unit construction Triumph frame, was always a much better deal.
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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby ludwig » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:33 pm

acotrel wrote:..- might not have a hinge in the middle like those disgusting AMC frames ..


And how many road miles have you done with these frames if I may ask ? .
Si tous les dégoûtés s'en vont , il n'y a que les dégoûtants qui restent ..

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby acotrel » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:52 pm

I rode plenty of old AJS/Matchless singles when I was a kid. We used to give them a good thrashing on public roads long before speed cameras were invented. They handled like a bag of shit - worse than a pre-unit Triumph, and much worse than a featherbed dommie. A BSA single or twin with the post 1954 frame was a much better deal as long as you threw the fork yokes away and fitted the ones from the unit construction Triumph 650 (about 1963 model). AJS/Matchless fixed at lot of their problems in about 1963, anything in their road bikes between WW2 and then, is rubbish.
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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Triton Thrasher » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:14 pm

acotrel wrote:as long as you threw the fork yokes away and fitted the ones from the unit construction Triumph 650 (about 1963 model).


I'm in a dream world, aren't I?
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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Rohan » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:40 pm

We'd like to ask Alan what he/they did for damping on those old Ajays and Matchies,
the Jampots were not known back even then for their oil retaining qualities.
No oil = no damping = no great road holding ability...

It is detailed in Don Morleys great book on compy bikes that the factory riders found that they could
disguise Munroe Wiley dampers inside the Jampot housings, and enjoy the best of both worlds -
ie look 'original', but damping that lasted...

But we diverge, as usual.

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Matt Spencer » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:05 am

Image

" Here is a Rob North modified Featherbed with a 650 motor circa 1971. "
" The bike belonged to my late brother, Fred Tremewan who worked in the Experimental Dept at Triumph until his death in 1971. He raced it a handful of times in 1970-71. "

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/17855 ... th-frames/
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby phillyskip » Fri May 09, 2014 10:35 pm

I had a 750 unit construction engine in a 1961 Featherbed frame. It was a 5 speed with a single carb. I loved it and regret ever selling it.
She handled well enough for me,but brakes weren't so good. I say po po to the "purist" who think a Triton needs to be pre unit. I'd rather have a unit engine in a bike .....and apparently so did Triumph......one other thing for the purists to chew on ....the carb was a Mikuni :)

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby Acebars » Sat May 10, 2014 6:49 am

acotrel wrote:I rode plenty of old AJS/Matchless singles when I was a kid. We used to give them a good thrashing on public roads long before speed cameras were invented. They handled like a bag of shit - worse than a pre-unit Triumph, and much worse than a featherbed dommie. A BSA single or twin with the post 1954 frame was a much better deal as long as you threw the fork yokes away and fitted the ones from the unit construction Triumph 650 (about 1963 model). AJS/Matchless fixed at lot of their problems in about 1963, anything in their road bikes between WW2 and then, is rubbish.


Out of interest. Did you ever try a G12 or G15 framed bike? Believe they came in 1960 as a full cradle frame..

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Re: T120 engines in Norton Featherbed frames

Postby MattinTexas » Sat May 10, 2014 10:13 am


Attached is a Photo of Collin Seeley and his early G50/R-7 engine racers. The similarity between Rob North's modified Featherbed frame and Collin Seeley's frames is interesting. I haven't read the Seeley books yet so I don't know if there was any connection or association between Rob North and Collin Seeley, but it would appear that they at least thought alike. Can anybody on the forum comment on the background of North and Seeley as far as their association or collaboration.
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