ZFD wrote: when I am sitting smugly in my shop with freezing temperatires outside and the occasional snow or cold downpour, and I hear a Commando outside, it is ALWAYS my friend Franzi with his Mk3 850..........And it always starts when he presses the button straight away.And it always starts when he presses the button straight away.

Outside your shop? When the engine is already warm? It's not surprising then.

ZFD wrote:He has the Heavy Duty starter lead conversion on it

Non-original = Doesn't count.

ZFD wrote:but I am not sure if he has or hasn't the 4-brush conversion.

It certainly wouldn't count if he did.

Electronic ignition? I bet it has a modern high CCA battery too? Left hooked up to a battery tender when not in use? In a nice garage?

Luxury!

LAB,
I have seen him start the bike from cold, too. His garage is unheated by the way- sounds as if your bike(s) lead a pampered life by comparison!

If you aren't satisfied with the test conditions, come here and test it yourself! If you can stand the cold and the snow, that is.

Not sure what the leads to the electric starter got to do with the life expectancy of the sprag, though. Non-original? Even the sprag these days is non-original because the original sprags as in a 1977 Mk3 from new had far flimsier cages. I think the main advantage his sprag has- and why it lives so long- is that the Boyer has 12V to play with even while he pushes the button and therefore does not go into erratic firing mode.

Joe

ZFD wrote: LAB,
I have seen him start the bike from cold, too. His garage is unheated by the way- sounds as if your bike(s) lead a pampered life by comparison!

I wasn't necessarily referring to my own bikes-only the general conditions under which most "classic" bikes seem to be kept these days (heated garage/trickle charger/etc.) even an unheated garage is a luxury when compared to "the good old days".

ZFD wrote: If you aren't satisfied with the test conditions

It's not a case of being satisfied or dissatisfied, my point was that an old bike that's been fitted with modern upgrades will no longer be a typical example of how that bike performed originally-therefore any modern day "test" results are meaningless.

ZFD wrote:come here and test it yourself! If you can stand the cold and the snow, that is.

I'm a bit busy, could you bring it here? (Bring your own snow)

LAB,
A mate bought a late absolutely bog standard Mk3 except for an analogue Boyer ignition about six years ago. If the battery has enough charge the bloody thing starts on the button 99% of the time. When it kicks back there's a mechanical clank and it keeps on cranking. It is most annoying as we all told him Commando starters are crap

I suppose it could be haunted, as leather jacketed street corner yobs, I kid you not, one of the lads had a C11g that would sometimes fire up when the ignition was turned on and we all reckoned that was.
It took us a few years to fathom out why.

Cash

cash wrote:A mate bought a late absolutely bog standard Mk3 except for an analogue Boyer ignition about six years ago. If the battery has enough charge the bloody thing starts on the button 99% of the time. When it kicks back there's a mechanical clank and it keeps on cranking. It is most annoying as we all told him Commando starters are crap

Well, that's hardly surprising, as my own Mk3's upgraded Prestolite starter is reliable (except when the sprag disintegrated!) and with its AGM battery, it turns the engine over with ease - but I doubt it would perform anywhere near as well down below freezing point after being left out in the open all night.

Even the owners handbook states:

For the first start of the day and particularly during very cold weather, it may be necessary to turn over the engine several times using the kickstart pedal to break the oil film before using the electric starter. Alternatively, the electric starter can be supplemented by the kickstarter.

Well I thought by now I would have got an answer about the new type Jap starters . I was just interested to see how long sprags who ever make were lasting with the faster spining motor and greater out put torque . As I said this is a great sight , but some people like to procrastinate . Just was looking for a short answer , and thought I could offer a much cheaper alternative , but give you the integrity , by the way my new sprag has an extra roller and a heavy duty cage that self centers in the drive sproket bore . I think every one knows the colder the ambient temp the less crank a battery standard (acid filled type that is) works . Ok hope next week can give out all the info and prices to those interested in replacement sprags that just want to ride not tell old glory day stories . I have been riding Norton Commando "s for about 35 years now so any new type parts that work better than the old bits did has to be a bonus . Makes me laugh inside when I see 6 year old bikes being wrecked love my Nortons, Dave .

Norton Dave wrote:Well I thought by now I would have got an answer about the new type Jap starters . I was just interested to see how long sprags who ever make were lasting with the faster spining motor and greater out put torque . As I said this is a great sight , but some people like to procrastinate . Just was looking for a short answer , and thought I could offer a much cheaper alternative , but give you the integrity , by the way my new sprag has an extra roller and a heavy duty cage that self centers in the drive sproket bore . I think every one knows the colder the ambient temp the less crank a battery standard (acid filled type that is) works . Ok hope next week can give out all the info and prices to those interested in replacement sprags that just want to ride not tell old glory day stories . I have been riding Norton Commando "s for about 35 years now so any new type parts that work better than the old bits did has to be a bonus . Makes me laugh inside when I see 6 year old bikes being wrecked love my Nortons, Dave .

I've been using one of Dyno Dave's electric starters for several years now on my street Mk3, and no sprag problems so far, even with the old analog Boyer. That's at least one data point for you. Still, I'll be interested in the final info on your sprag, when you're done. I'm planning to rebuild the bike soon, and have no idea what condition the original sprag is in, except that it still works.

Ken

I have a Dyno Dave starter fitted, AGM battery, upgraded leads. I used to run Boyer, but now Trispark.

I have had one complete failure of a sprag clutch, and have also had a second sprag going over centre and then righting itself (at least I think this is what was happening...it would just whirr and not try to turn the engine over and then suddenly work again ) and this was after fitting a new starter drive gear as well. I lost confidence in this sprag as I was always waiting for it to disintegrate and so fitted a third sprag.

I do start mine 99% of the time on the button, and it is now 920cc running a compression ratio of 9.8:1, so maybe a bit more effort required of the sprag.

Hi there
I have had problems with my starter also done just about everything,4 pole largest battery I can fit in,and replaced sprag,worked for a short time then sprag overcentred and locked up primary,I took it out in disgust and ran without starter for a while,then I saw an article in roadholder 279 re starter problems here it said both surfaces where sprag contacts wear hence giving too much clearance,solution basically machine out the inside of drive sprocket and turn down inner that the sprag runs on and fit a hardened bush onto this with locktight closing the clearance so the sprag can't overcentre,I'm sorry I can't be more technical about this,I had an engineer do this for me but I'm sure you can get the idea.Since doing this bike starts easily when cold although we dont experience some of the temps some of you have to deal with,anyway hopefully we have many miles of trouble fee riding from now on ,last thing attack bush inside and out with dremel or similar inner so locktight has a good key and outside so sprag has something to bite into.cheers for now

My sprag has played up first about four months ago when the starter engaged at tick over i rocked the bike and the stater disengaged and was fine till last week when it happned again i have striped it out and found the cage in the sprag had broken i have checked the gear and sprocket for wear as i got the dimentions from Mick Hemmings a very helpfull man .The bearing has now been replaced and all is well