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Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Norton Models (not Commando or P11)

Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Rohan » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:40 pm

We notice on the NOC that Anthony Curzon recommends someone to sleeve Atlas or 650 cylinders,
and make it a good job. Probably THE man on knowledge of these engines.

After some comments here about sleeving cylinders, thought this might keep some balance and perspective on this subject...

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby elefantrider » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:47 am

Can you post the link?
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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby pierodn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:16 pm

Rohan wrote:We notice on the NOC that Anthony Curzon recommends someone to sleeve Atlas or 650 cylinders,
and make it a good job. Probably THE man on knowledge of these engines.

After some comments here about sleeving cylinders, thought this might keep some balance and perspective on this subject...

Please, what means "to sleeve cylinders"?. Rebore?
Thank you.
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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby bill » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:04 pm

we have had THIS chat before. a 750 cylinder is a hit or miss at .060 over size. there are core shift issue's that can induce weak spots in some at .060. I have seen the bottom spigot crack on .060 and in my younger and dumber days tried to use a 750 cyl bored to accept junkstall 810 pistons. the later did not work out as it kept trying to seize with and i kept adding more clearance till it finally broke the cylinder at the base flange. if YOU think sleeving a 750 cyl is a good idea than be my guest and report back but my money is on a LOT of broken parts when the cyl leaves the crank cases.

Rohan wrote:We notice on the NOC that Anthony Curzon recommends someone to sleeve Atlas or 650 cylinders,
and make it a good job. Probably THE man on knowledge of these engines.

After some comments here about sleeving cylinders, thought this might keep some balance and perspective on this subject...
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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby norton bob » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:40 am

Sleeving can work ,but there is a significant risk of breaking through to the outside and weakening what is already known to be a bit overstressed. I planted some seeds last year and there are moves afoot to make some new 88 and 99/650 barrells . If you are not in a rush---------.

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Bernhard » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:20 am

Way back when I had an Atlas I rode the bike down a long outside stair case and on the way home the bike became slower and slower until it locked up. A subsequent engine strip revealed that one of the barrel spigots had broken off and the liner dropped down onto the crank-so I had a new liner fitted from Norton (they were available at the time) I had no more trouble with the liner. I just made sure I didn’t do any more off road riding

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Rohan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:17 pm

Thanks Bernhard, the voice of experience.

bill wrote:we have had THIS chat before.


Yes, but from folks with no experience of sleeves ?!
Folks say the same about old sidevalves being resleeved, but I've an M20 engine that has
done serious miles on a resleeved engine.

Sleeves for dommies, and the older singles too, have been around for donkeys years.
As long as they are sleeved (BEFORE they are overbored to ell) by someone who knows what they are doing,
they are good for another life, the sleeve actually strengthens the area around the base.
And if Tony Curzon uses them, he formerly of Gus Kuhn, then they must be good.

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Burgs » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:01 pm

Rohan
I have a 72 Commando and time allowing I will be sleeving back to standard, bore I have a set of Feked sleeves to do this.

One of the bottom spigot has been knocked off at some time, but I don't see this being an issue.

I am sending a barrel to a foundry I do a bit of machine for to see what it would cost to have a few cast, I would then machine them on my Machining Centre.

The killer will be the price of the patterns.


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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby bill » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:09 pm

that is NOT the same as a 750 cylinder

Rohan wrote:Sleeves for dommies, and the older singles too, have been around for donkeys years.


this has NO effect on the sleeve job as it has in your words to be bored to ell to install the sleeve

Rohan wrote:
As long as they are sleeved (BEFORE they are overbored to ell) by someone who knows what they are doing,



this has to be the biggest load of bullocks i have seen as the sleeve is just a press fit to an already thin casting. the ONLY way it would come close to even being as strong would be to weld the sleeve at the top and bottom to the casting and good luck on that one.

Rohan wrote:
the sleeve actually strengthens the area around the base.


I had a chat with probably the most respected builder on here today on some other stuff also and he STOPPED doing them as the failure rate was to high for him.

so my next question to you is just how much machine work on engines have you personally done. from the last quote my guess is NONE.
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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Rohan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:50 pm

Why don't you actually name the builder that had so much trouble ?

No I don't do this service - although my dad used to press sleeves into diesel engines.
Some piston rebuild kits come with their own set of sleeves.
They are hardly a light press fit - they have to be pressed/shrunk in so they are solidly locked in there.
The BSA M20 I have that is sleeved you can barely pick it has been sleeved - the joint is only a shadow in the metal.
If you weren't specifically looking for it, you probably would not detect it.

Nortons only recommended reboring to 40 thou, and (back then) only supplied os pistons to that size.
So if sleeved before reboring to 60 or 80 thou oversize (!)...
As said, Anthony Curzon is the expert on these engines, and he would seem to have sleeved
and reclaimed many engines over the decades - or why would Norton Dealers stock or use the sleeves ?

I too have heard that serious reboring makes the bottom flange rather weak - thats why they need to be resleeved BEFORE the walls get that thin...
And we have Bernhard here with a sleeved cylinder example, all good...
Last edited by Rohan on Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Rohan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:52 pm

elefantrider wrote:Can you post the link?


I'm afraid I only noted the contents in passing, didn't save the link.
Not sure how searchable the NOC Forum is...

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Bernhard » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:39 am

When resleeving cylinders it depends on how it is done, the barrel will require heating up to about 100 degrees and the sleeve left in a deep freezer overnight, they will still require a press but there will be less chance of damage .

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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby bill » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:15 am

all the diesel engines i have seen are what is called a WET sleeve so you are comparing chalk and cheese on this one. i also NEVER stated it was a light press and a proper job will barely show a shadow line from the different metal. so you openly state that norton only recommended plus 040. that is a far cry as to how far you have to bore to install a sleeve as a starndard 1/8 wall sleeve will need to be bored .250over or a thinner wall would need .180. as to bernhard he took the chance and has lucked out but it is not the chance I nor the other builder will take anymore.


Rohan wrote:
No I don't do this service - although my dad used to press sleeves into diesel engines.
Some piston rebuild kits come with their own set of sleeves.
They are hardly a light press fit - they have to be pressed/shrunk in so they are solidly locked in there.
The BSA M20 I have that is sleeved you can barely pick it has been sleeved - the joint is only a shadow in the metal.
If you weren't specifically looking for it, you probably would not detect it.

Nortons only recommended reboring to 40 thou, and (back then) only supplied os pistons to that size.
So if sleeved before reboring to 60 or 80 thou oversize (!)...
As said, Anthony Curzon is the expert on these engines, and he would seem to have sleeved
and reclaimed many engines over the decades - or why would Norton Dealers stock or use the sleeves ?

I too have heard that serious reboring makes the bottom flange rather weak - thats why they need to be resleeved BEFORE the walls get that thin...
And we have Bernhard here with a sleeved cylinder example, all good...
Last edited by bill on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby Triton Thrasher » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:15 am

bill wrote:all the diesel engines i have seen are what is called a WET sleeve so you are comparing chalk and cheese on this one.



Dry lined diesels are common too, but you're right- engines that had liners from new have no relevance to trying to save a worn out air cooled barrel.
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Re: Sleeving Atlas & 650 cylinders.

Postby bill » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:46 am

you are correct. i was referring to the large commercial engines. on the wet sleeve engines it is common place to sell liner kits which include a complete renew assembly. even the dry sleeve engines you are starting from a LOT heaver block.
Triton Thrasher wrote:

Dry lined diesels are common too, but you're right- engines that had liners from new have no relevance to trying to save a worn out air cooled barrel.
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