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Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Classic Norton Commando Motorcycles.

Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby texasSlick » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:50 am

JimNH wrote:This is a list of TCM approved sealants, oils, etc. Near the end is an illustration of how to apply sealant and silk thread on crankcase halves.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SIL99-2C.pdf


Good info .... thanks Jim! I will print this out and keep it handy.

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby DogT » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:10 am

I used the Hylomar, but I'm sure I must not have put it on right as I have leaks at the bottom of the engine around the front/bottom stud, mostly when it wet sumps or I ride it. I found it difficult to work with because of it's acetone solvent (dries quickly) and ended up applying it right out of the end of the tube onto the flange, but I never did feel confident that I got enough on and in the right places. It seemed smeary and hard to make any consistent buildup. Are there any instructions about using it? Or I may break it down one of these days and try the Permatex. This kind of thing happens to me, I'm glad everyone else has luck. It leaked horribly as factory build, but not sure everything else wasn't leaking too. I did whack out the chain oiler early on.

I used to think of it as a mobile oil puddle, but it's lots better now, at least manageable. Of course when I went from SAE50 to V-Twin Syn, it started leaking more.
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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby Fast Eddie » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:13 am

DogT wrote:I used the Hylomar, but I'm sure I must not have put it on right as I have leaks at the bottom of the engine around the front/bottom stud, mostly when it wet sumps or I ride it. I found it difficult to work with because of it's acetone solvent (dries quickly) and ended up applying it right out of the end of the tube onto the flange, but I never did feel confident that I got enough on and in the right places. It seemed smeary and hard to make any consistent buildup. Are there any instructions about using it? Or I may break it down one of these days and try the Permatex. This kind of thing happens to me, I'm glad everyone else has luck. It leaked horribly as factory build, but not sure everything else wasn't leaking too. I did whack out the chain oiler early on.

I used to think of it as a mobile oil puddle, but it's lots better now, at least manageable. Of course when I went from SAE50 to V-Twin Syn, it started leaking more.


That's why I like Wellseal. I decant it into a small glass jar and use a small, modellers, paint brush to apply it. It is far easier to apply a uniform thickness and ensure its covering the right places that way.
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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby blacklav » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:25 am

wellseals the one, Mick Hemmings has used it for years on crankcases and cylinder head gaskets. He`s never had a leaky head gasket, and if you get it on the case sides it wipes clean off with petrol.

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby needing » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:28 pm

texasSlick wrote:
JimNH wrote:This is a list of TCM approved sealants, oils, etc. Near the end is an illustration of how to apply sealant and silk thread on crankcase halves.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SIL99-2C.pdf


Good info .... thanks Jim! I will print this out and keep it handy.

Once more, the wealth of knowledge possessed by Forum members is demonstrated, to the benefit of all, and access to such knowledge is well worth the price of VIP membership.

Slick

Thanks JimNH. I reinforce Slick's sentiment. Excellent resource and well worth paying the price for membership!
The first few pages re products and applications are brilliant - I'd not heard of Dow Corning "MOLYKOTE® G-N METAL ASSEMBLY PASTE" for cam assembly and bedding-in.
I especially like that the document is current i.e. 21st century revised in 2014.
Ta.

needing

Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby lcrken » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:48 pm

Interesting. I've found several people in the industry who have used both Wellseal and Hylomar (which I have used for years, and like) and prefer Wellseal. I'd like to give it a try, but a quick google search only shows me one source of Wellseal in the US, at Pegasus racing, and they charge an extra $40 fee because it can't be shipped by the Post Office or UPS ground, but has to go by UPS air. They have the same requirement for shipping Hylomar blue and Hylomar Solvent Free Gasket Maker. Kind of pricey, unless you're buying it by the case.

Anyone know of another source here in the US?

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby texasSlick » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:09 pm

It is interesting that my Norton Owner's Manual (the one that came with the new machine) recommends sealing the cases with Wellseal ..... that was written in 1962!

I was never able to find it in the US. When I split my cases back in the early '70s to stop a leak, damfino what I used to seal the cases, but whatever it was, not a drop from the case seams since. If I split them again, I'll be looking for Wellseal AND silk thread!

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby rwalker28 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:45 pm

Hi Ken,

Hope this link works. It is expensive to ship by air because it is hazardous (flammability most likely) but $11.25 by UPS ground. Six tubes are $13.02 ground shipping. Maybe they won't ship ground to CA I think you are there? If not PM me, you can pay me to buy it for you and I will send it to you for, as they say, "no extra charge." I put in the Beverley Hills zip and the ground cost was same.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/reviewcart.asp


ebay, would take a bit but about the same price?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stag-Wellseal-J ... 565718ee69

Update: I got interested it is not flammable or reactive; the solvent is a chlorinated hydrocarbon and is a health hazard. UPS rates it as a "poison" and it attacks the central nervous system. Be a PIA to ship without a trained guy to pack it and do all the necessary paperwork in the US. You would not want to breathe this long term.


lcrken wrote:Interesting. I've found several people in the industry who have used both Wellseal and Hylomar (which I have used for years, and like) and prefer Wellseal. I'd like to give it a try, but a quick google search only shows me one source of Wellseal in the US, at Pegasus racing, and they charge an extra $40 fee because it can't be shipped by the Post Office or UPS ground, but has to go by UPS air. They have the same requirement for shipping Hylomar blue and Hylomar Solvent Free Gasket Maker. Kind of pricey, unless you're buying it by the case.

Anyone know of another source here in the US?

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby WZ507 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:26 pm

Enjoyable read hearing the wide variety of sometimes differing experiences with a wide variety of sealants.

Ole rwalker28 beat me to the punch on pointing out the toxicology concerns of several of these sealants, and his points are well taken. For example Wellseal contains perchloroethylene and Hylomar contains dichloromethane - both chlorinated solvents that present health concerns. It is the presence of these chlorinated solvents that render the compositions non-flammable.

If you read the MSDS sheets on these you'd likely never touch either of them. However if you read the MSDS sheet on lacquer thinner, paint remover, carb cleaner, and many other common household products, you'd never touch them either.

My intent is clearly not to scare anyone - more the opposite - I don't want people to be scared away from common things that can be used safely. I just find it humorous that over on the thread "Needing Air", some people were all excited about the hazards of a can of carb cleaner. Well if you were concerned about using carb cleaner, you'd really be concerned about using the subject sealants. Maybe the thread title "Needing Air" was foretelling, since we find ourselves Needing plenty of fresh Air to use these products.

Like always, a little common sense goes a long way toward minimizing health hazards, e.g.,
• don’t huff the stuff,
• don't get it on your skin (wear protective rubber gloves if you'll be contacting the sealant)
• don't use it in a confined area with no air exchange - the better the ventilation the better off you'll be
• don’t use it for extended periods of time, or use large quantities of sealant unless ventilation is excellent

The above suggestions are just that, suggestions. The most important thing you can do is to perform your own search to assess risks and determine how to safely handle materials containing these solvents if you choose to use them. They can be dangerous - as a prime example look what they've done to me. :oops:

Getting back to the subject of sealants, I'm in DogT's camp on the Hylomar as I don't care for it and have had bad experiences using it. Might have to see if I can get a personal audience with LCRKEN to figure out why my experiences with Hylomar are less than stellar.
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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby lcrken » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:16 pm

Well, rwalker28 piqued my interest, so I've ordered a tube each of Wellseal and Hylomar Blue (I'm almost out of it anyhow) from Pegasus, and the receipt shows the cost of shipping UPS ground, and no mention of the $40 HAO hazardous material fee. However, their web site and catalog still say both materials are HAO and will require the $40 fee, and must be shipped UPS air. AND, the receipt that shows just the $13 UPS ground fee calls the total cost an "Estimated" total. I fully expect to hear from them, with the additional $40 charge added, at which point I would hopefully be able to cancel my order. The last time I bought a tube of Hylomar Blue, I had to have the local NAPA store order it, but at least there were no extra fees for shipping, HAO, or anything else. I'll report on whether the order goes through.

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby rwalker28 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:14 am

Hi Ken,

I think you are fine, the 40 bucks applies only if you choose to ship by air. The description calls for the extra 40 "WHEN" shipped by air. Ups will take it ground for 13 and change. It is the U.S. postal service that won't. If you look at the HOA bit on the website (I do not have the catalogue) the comma is the key, it is "hazardous, air only" that means hazardous for air shipments only. Those regs are commonly worded like that so they can cram a lot of info into a single page.

Kind of like the old joke about how important punctuation is, as in "Let's eat, Grandma" is a whole lot different than "Let's eat Grandma.

At least that is how it looks to me, if they try to stick you with the 40 you should be able to cancel if they a straight up kind of outfit.




lcrken wrote:Well, rwalker28 piqued my interest, so I've ordered a tube each of Wellseal and Hylomar Blue (I'm almost out of it anyhow) from Pegasus, and the receipt shows the cost of shipping UPS ground, and no mention of the $40 HAO hazardous material fee. However, their web site and catalog still say both materials are HAO and will require the $40 fee, and must be shipped UPS air. AND, the receipt that shows just the $13 UPS ground fee calls the total cost an "Estimated" total. I fully expect to hear from them, with the additional $40 charge added, at which point I would hopefully be able to cancel my order. The last time I bought a tube of Hylomar Blue, I had to have the local NAPA store order it, but at least there were no extra fees for shipping, HAO, or anything else. I'll report on whether the order goes through.

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby WZ507 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:52 pm

When we assemble engine cases they are seldom together for a lifetime, i.e., they ultimately end up coming apart to facilitate access to some other subassembly that has failed or is in the process of failing. And although our primary objective is a leak-free engine, it is the disassembly and subsequent clean-up process that I am curious about now.

Regarding disassembly, I know that several silicone-based sealants can present a challenge when it comes time to separate the sealed joint. Once separated, silicone sealants can generally be cleaned-up relatively easily with common spirits and perseverance.

I have no experience with the Yamabond, Hondabond, Threebond genre of sealants, so am curious to hear feedback from end-users on how these synthetic rubber-based sealants are for disassembly and especially post-use clean-up.

Likewise I lack experience with the rosin ester based sealants, e.g., Wellseal, Loctite Aviation Gasket Seal, etc and am equally curious about end-user experiences with disassembly and clean-up of surfaces sealed with these materials.

Because some of these materials are delivered in chlorinated solvents (small molecules that are very good solvents), are resistance to oil, gas, and most automotive fluids, it would follow that they might likewise be quite resistant to many common solvents we might use in an attempt to dissolve/remove them. Thus I am especially curious to hear how people deal with their removal.

Thanks for your feedback.
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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby chasbmw » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:13 am

I don't have current experience with Nortons, but on 1970s BMWs, the sealant of choice for the pesky crankcase to cylinder case joint has changed over the years from Hylomar to the Dreibond/hondabond/yamabond range of sealants. These sealants work to properly seal the joint, whereas with Hylomar sealant, the joint will start to mist oil, especially if the bike is used hard. When my Norton gets to the stage of needing sealant then I will go down the Dreibond route.

iMHO etcetera

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby JimNH » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:16 am

Slick[/quote]
Thanks JimNH. I reinforce Slick's sentiment. Excellent resource and well worth paying the price for membership!
The first few pages re products and applications are brilliant - I'd not heard of Dow Corning "MOLYKOTE® G-N METAL ASSEMBLY PASTE" for cam assembly and bedding-in.
I especially like that the document is current i.e. 21st century revised in 2014.
Ta.[/quote]

Funny about the 21st century comment. When I last used the recommendation list it was well back in the last century. Continental Motors was them known as Teledyne Continental, TCM; I see the name has changed yet again.

Thanks for reading it through and bringing the DC MOLYKOTE to my attention. My latest need for a cam lube was my MG TF engine, one know for beating up lobes and lifters. I used a Permatex product but it was not a moly paste; time will tell if it survived break-in. My experience as an aircraft mechanic made me a believer in their recommendations so next time I'll look at the DC product.

As for MC and other cases not aircraft, I'll continue to use Yamahondasuzukibond as I've had good luck with it and, when you do get it apart it cleans up with solvent quite easily.

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Re: Sealing compound for joining the crankcase halfs

Postby Patrick M » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:00 am

Loctite 518, a modern anaerobic sealant that works great on aluminum. I haven't tried it on my Norton cases but I've used it on my BMW cylinders with excellent results.
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