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Sounds to me like you may have several things going on there. I'd check the primary gearbox seal, pull of the primary chain and check your crank seal too. Only way you can get extra oil in the primary is from the engine or gearbox or if you put it in there. Is your gearbox over filled? Are you sure there are no extra holes from the crank into the primary? You may also want to check the oil pump for pressure and delivery, don't ask me how. I don't understand how 1 extra oz of fluid in the primary is going to start it leaking out the felt seal. Yes that chain can flop around pretty good, but it shouldn't hit anything.

Did you get the bike like this or did it all of a sudden start, what's the history?

Dave
69S

DogT wrote:Sounds to me like you may have several things going on there. I'd check the primary gearbox seal, pull of the primary chain and check your crank seal too. Only way you can get extra oil in the primary is from the engine or gearbox or if you put it in there. Is your gearbox over filled? Are you sure there are no extra holes from the crank into the primary? You may also want to check the oil pump for pressure and delivery, don't ask me how. I don't understand how 1 extra oz of fluid in the primary is going to start it leaking out the felt seal. Yes that chain can flop around pretty good, but it shouldn't hit anything.

Did you get the bike like this or did it all of a sudden start, what's the history?

Dave
69S

I have been fighting this since I got the bike, it is good for short jaunts and under 25miles I am good. But after that it just lets oil to the primary and the leak is clearly from where the felt seal meets at the rear of the primary.

I have been meticulous about the process by adding a new crank seal, replacing the three primary bolts with studs etc. 70z of ATF exactly. Do you think 14oz of oil in the sump after running a hour thorugh the desert is normal? I can peer into the oil tank and see the return line spurting oil back up to the tank. I just dont know what kind of volume this is operating at. I think the volume is the key, it seems the scavenge is just not keeping up with whats going to the sump at cruising speeds.

edit* no extra holes to primary, just the three studs and the crank seal (NEW)....

you say your primary chain is bouncing pretty good and slapping the bottom of the primary

sounds like it is too loose doesn't it?

You should be able to lift the upper chain in the middle about 3/8 of an inch from its resting position

any more than that and you will need to loosen the upper and lower gearbox mounts and the right side threaded adjuster two nuts and move the gearbox rearward a little to take out that slack, read the workshop manual for specific instructions

moving the gearbox backwards will then also slacken your rear chain so you will need to then reset that tension

And on to the overfilling primary: without going back over the pages of posts, did you say that you did recently install a new crank seal and if so when? Any chance you may have torn it on installation?

Red ATF fluid now confirmed darker and an ounce more primary fluid, so we know it IS coming through the crank seal and into the primary, really have no other choice but to grit your teeth and carefully remove your seal and put in a new one...............

1up3down wrote:you say your primary chain is bouncing pretty good and slapping the bottom of the primary

sounds like it is too loose doesn't it?

You should be able to lift the upper chain in the middle about 3/8 of an inch from its resting position

any more than that and you will need to loosen the upper and lower gearbox mounts and the right side threaded adjuster two nuts and move the gearbox rearward a little to take out that slack, read the workshop manual for specific instructions

moving the gearbox backwards will then also slacken your rear chain so you will need to then reset that tension

And on to the overfilling primary: without going back over the pages of posts, did you say that you did recently install a new crank seal and if so when? Any chance you may have torn it on installation?

Red ATF fluid now confirmed darker and an ounce more primary fluid, so we know it IS coming through the crank seal and into the primary, really have no other choice but to grit your teeth and carefully remove your seal and put in a new one...............

Yeha teeth are permenantly gritted....

I bought two seals and heres the picture of when I installed it originally a month *edit "while" ago....



Heres the video of the primary chain having a party in there....

http://youtu.be/OV_V8UlOlf0

Try this, but don't get it too tight. It will tighten up when it gets hot, I don't understand why, but it does.

"I've always found it difficult to measure the total up-and-down play of the chain, because you have to wiggle the chain up and down somehow and also measure how much it's moving, all through a small hole. An easier way is to measure a tight chain compared to a slack chain, since this is half the total up-and-down play. To do this, make two marks 3/16" apart [not 3/8"] on the end of a stick or piece of paper. Then put the bike on the centerstand and the gearbox in 4th, and lie on the ground next to the primary.

Now, if you move the rear tire in the forward direction with your foot, the bottom of the chain tightens and you get all the slack on top. If you move the rear tire in the backward direction, all the slack is on the bottom and the top is tight. So pick out some feature on the chain (top of link, bottom of link, rivet, etc.) , and compare it to the two marks as you move the wheel back and forth. You can easily see how much it's moving compared with the two marks and loosen the chain appropriately. (BUT DON'T OVERSHOOT! If you get it TOO loose, you have to tighten it and start all over again).

Once the tight chain/slack chain play is 3/16", you know the total up and down play is 3/8". I also try to check it later when the engine is really hot. You can do this at the side of the road, and there should be at least SOME play then, or it needs to be a little looser.
Mike Taglieri"

Heres the video of the primary chain having a party in there....

she be dancing

time to move the gearbox aft a tad.......

iceteanolemon wrote:


Also after this experiment I decide the drop the sump plug and see whats in the sump. I didn't take a picture but there was 14oz of oil in the sump.

So could it be my oil pump is just not effective enough at cruising speed to keep the sump scavenged? If so then is there some pictures of what I have to do to make this thing a done deal and get it running right?

14 oz of oil in the sump immediately after shutdown is quite a bit. I am thinking there may be a problem with the scavenge side of the oil pump. If the bike sat for a few hours before you checked- then that may be normal.

I see two possibilities. Either excess crankcase pressure before the breather was fitted has dislodged the crankshaft oil seal or the oil pump has damage and is not scavenging the cases well enough.

If you look into the top of the oil tank after the engine has been warmed up you should see oil return squirting from the holes in the tube visible under the cap. It should be squirts of oil mixed with pockets of air .. If there is only a slow stream of oil but no air pockets with the engine at 12 to 15 hundred RPM then the scavenge side of the oil pump likely has had some foreign material run through it and has damaged gears. Removing the oil pump and inspecting it is easy. The hardest part is re-setting the timing.
Set the engine at the timing mark in the primary chaincase and then mark the position of the timing rotor in relation to the timing cover before you pull the rotor to help get it back where it was when you re-assemble it. Feel free to call me if you want to discuss the problem. Jim 719-821-5708

comnoz wrote:

iceteanolemon wrote:


Also after this experiment I decide the drop the sump plug and see whats in the sump. I didn't take a picture but there was 14oz of oil in the sump.

So could it be my oil pump is just not effective enough at cruising speed to keep the sump scavenged? If so then is there some pictures of what I have to do to make this thing a done deal and get it running right?

14 oz of oil in the sump immediately after shutdown is quite a bit. I am thinking there may be a problem with the scavenge side of the oil pump. If the bike sat for a few hours before you checked- then that may be normal.

I see two possibilities. Either excess crankcase pressure before the breather was fitted has dislodged the crankshaft oil seal or the oil pump has damage and is not scavenging the cases well enough.

If you look into the top of the oil tank after the engine has been warmed up you should see oil return squirting from the holes in the tube visible under the cap. It should be squirts of oil mixed with pockets of air .. If there is only a slow stream of oil but no air pockets with the engine at 12 to 15 hundred RPM then the scavenge side of the oil pump likely has had some foreign material run through it and has damaged gears. Removing the oil pump and inspecting it is easy. The hardest part is re-setting the timing.
Set the engine at the timing mark in the primary chaincase and then mark the position of the timing rotor in relation to the timing cover before you pull the rotor to help get it back where it was when you re-assemble it. Feel free to call me if you want to discuss the problem. Jim 719-821-5708

Yeah I am thinking now on the lines of the oil pump being buggered up or something. I have the primary cover off though so it doesnt take me longer than 15 min to get to the crank oil seal as well. When it cools down today I may just get at both of them to see if the oil seal is messed up, then I will take the timing cover off and get to the oil pump.

I have electronic ignition so its pretty easy to set that back up. I also can do the mechanical timing as I have had tons of practice with that too. I usually get something right by doing it 15 times.

When I get the oil pump out I will have to learn as I go though as I have not seen a good walkthrough anywhere on servicing one. I just see lots of talk about the grinding, lapping and such.

This page comes to mind http://www.nortonownersclub.org/support ... ump-repair

No actual detailed articles with pictures for me though. I guess not everything is idiot proof.

Now for the Sump breather, I am thinking I need to search for root cause and see how it performs without the breather. I only want to add it if it enhances the performance or function. Of course I am open to understanding how the experts weigh in on the situation.

So in this order I will

#1 remove primary chain and pull/inspect the crank oil seal.

If seal is messed up ripped etc I will reinstall new one and button it up to give it another whirl.

If seal is good I will go on to #2....

#2 Pull timing cover and take apart oil pump. Take a bunch of pictures and figure that deal out.

just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

1up3down wrote:just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

from a conversation with JimC he mentioned using the norton seal with the metal outer diameter and using somehting on it to epoxy it in. I dont believe we talked about what to use to put on there in granularity.... I am sure loctite has a product that can do the job. I will have to look around.

iceteanolemon wrote:

1up3down wrote:just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

from a conversation with JimC he mentioned using the norton seal with the metal outer diameter and using somehting on it to epoxy it in. I dont believe we talked about what to use to put on there in granularity.... I am sure loctite has a product that can do the job. I will have to look around.

I use a thin smear of JB weld in the bore before I put the seal in. Pretty much any epoxy would do the job. Just don't use so much that it gets pushed into the bearing. I have not had as good of luck using locktite for that.

Put a piece of scotch tape over the keyway to protect the seal as you slide it on. You can pull the tape out after the seal is slid over it. Jim

comnoz wrote:

iceteanolemon wrote:

1up3down wrote:just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

from a conversation with JimC he mentioned using the norton seal with the metal outer diameter and using somehting on it to epoxy it in. I dont believe we talked about what to use to put on there in granularity.... I am sure loctite has a product that can do the job. I will have to look around.

I use a thin smear of JB weld in the bore before I put the seal in. Pretty much any epoxy would do the job. Just don't use so much that it gets pushed into the bearing. I have not had as good of luck using locktite for that.

Put a piece of scotch tape over the keyway to protect the seal as you slide it on. You can pull the tape out after the seal is slid over it. Jim

whoa jb! When you said epoxy you meant it!

I just use JB weld because I always have lots of it around the shop. It is no more difficult to remove than any other epoxy. It scrapes right off when the time comes- especially if you soften it up with a rag soaked in lacquer thinner or acetone for a bit first. Jim

The 68 Workshop Manual pretty much walks you through the oil pump but it doesn't do any repair or test work on it. If you need that manual, it's available on line, if you need it, I can probably find it for you. I'm sure there's a way to test it though.

Dave
69S

I always lube the fine lip of the seal when I install a new one. It's just a tiny sharp edge and I've always felt it would be easy to overheat and hurt on dry startup. Not saying this is your trouble or even if this is a real concern. It's just what I do...

I'll be interested to see what you find in your investigations.