Joined: 25 Jun 2004 Posts: 86 Location: The Great White North
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject:
Ron,
It came as a surpise to me as well. FYI, my Ducati is a Dark, so it only has a single disc. As far as I can see, there are two differences:
1. The Ducati pads uses GG friction code linings (friction coefficient of 0.45 to 0.55), where the CBR pads use HH linings (CF = 0.55+).
2. The Ducati uses a stainless steel rotor, where, as you know, the Norton rotor is cast iron. Even though it is heavy and it rusts, cast iron is the very best brake rotor material you can get. A friend of mine actually machines old Norton rotors to fit airhead BMW rotor carriers as a brake performance improvement.
I have toyed with the idea of modifying a GSXR rotor to mount to a Norton hub, but I really doubt that I will get any more performance out of it, as the different rotor material may negate the increase in diameter.
By the way, another bonus you get with the 4-piston caliper is that the centerline of the pistons are closer to the edge of the rotor, which does increase your mechanical advantage. In the case of my Nissan caliper / Norton rotor setup, it is equivalent to installing a 20 mm larger rotor.
Cheers,
Derek
P.S. - Ron, why are you not at the National Rally right now?
Hi guys and gals!
I really think it is quite amusing as well, to switch from one topic to an other.
The frontbrake of my Commando is working reasonably well from my point of view. Saying that, I even got used to the single disc on my BMW 75/6...
The single disc on my BMW R 100 GS, which I still own, is a lot more ”agressive” since I fitted a steelbraided hosing (missing the right vocabulary here). It’s so damn easy to lock the front brake and I find that quite irretating, ecspecially in the wet...
I reckon I will stick with that Norton front disc, as I prefer to really give it a handfull to make it do it’s job. It’s nearly impossible to lock the frontwheel.
I like that. It’s some kind of workout as well
With my wife on the pillion seat maybe things will look a bit different...
big deal, even more workout!!
That Ducati brake idea looks interesting anyway.
Derek,
I'd be at the INOA rally except for that nagging necessity...work! Actually I feel a bit guilty because our local club is manning the Concours for the CONO's and NONO's and I'm here at work.
Thanks for the insight on the pad differences. Also I was thinking you had dual discs with cast iron rotors on the Monster. That's what's on my 900SP. My R1100RS BMW has Brembo's with stainless discs and comparing the brakes, the Duc's are fabulous, BMW better than average. However, my bevel drive Duc uses cast iron rotors and the two piston F08 Brembo caliper and they are better than the BMW, so I can appreciate the difference rotor composition makes.
I have an extra late model Duc cast iron rotor (floating) that someday I'll get around to getting an adaptor/spacer made for. Meanwhile I'll have to look into the CBR caliper/stock rotor.
Joined: 25 Jun 2004 Posts: 86 Location: The Great White North
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:31 am Post subject:
Ron,
I hear you on the work thing.
Tony,
The CBR600F4 caliper pistons are 32 mm in diameter. The Norton caliper has 42 mm pistons. Because the CBR caliper is 4 piston, it has about 13% more piston area than the Norton one.
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Boulder, CO
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:10 am Post subject:
Matt, sorry about your thread getting hijacked! See what happens when you ask an innocent question? It's been a very interesting discussion though.
Now back to rotors. The guy who did the machine work on mine suggested having it electroless nickel plated. Prevents the rust and looks nice. But would that affect the braking? Ron, on your SP are those rotors bare iron or plated?
Debby,
The SP's rotors are bare iron, as are the one's on my 900SS beveldrive. They get a little rusty when I wash it, but a quick wipe or a short run and they clean up. I have the rotors on the Nortons turned to remove the plating. It improved the grip, but is messy when they get wet. I would think the Nickel plate would have a negative effect on the friction, what's your professional opinion, Derek?
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 Posts: 661 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:17 am Post subject:
Deb,
The coefficient of static friction (mu) for cast iron is .4. I don't know what mu is for electroless nickle but perhaps another forum member does. If mu for nickle is, say, .3 then a nickle plated disc would not stop as quick as cast iron, given the same braking force. I doubt that you could tell the stopping difference between the two (plated or non plated) by the seat of your pants, however.
Now, my experience with electroless nickle has not been good. When it gets nicked, a corrosion cell sets up between the plating and the base metal. Then the plating starts to lift away to reveal a rusty surface beneath. It gets real ugly real quick.
As such, I don't recommend electroless nickle plating on disc brake rotors.
Joined: 25 Jun 2004 Posts: 86 Location: The Great White North
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:08 am Post subject: E-nickel
Debby & All,
My front rotor is e-nickel plated. The main reason for this was to prevent the cross-drilled holes from bleeding rust when the rotor gets wet. I have suffered no ill braking effects while the plating was in place (it has worn off in the area under the pads now). I know of at least 6 other bikes running stock calipers with e-nickeled rotors with no problems.
Plating lifting off has not been a problem.
At work, we actually e-nickel some of our driveline components on amphibious vehicles for salt water corrosion resistance. One thing to mention, not all e-nickel's are created equal, and it is only as good as it's metal prep prior to plating.
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 362 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:57 pm Post subject:
Hey Matt,
This Master Cylinder/Brake question I asked about some months back now. CNW parts was the topic. I am surprised no one has mentioned it here. Take a look if you care to.
I have had the Brembo master cylinder fitted for some time now & it works a treat. Another forum member "Debby" has also decided to copy the idea I see.
If you check out this page, you will see the Brembo caliper setup I have since mounted on my "920" commando.
reg
I have an 850 motor sitting around that I bought to do a big bore with. I see that you have a 920 and would like to know more about it. I was debating on 880 or 920. the 920 bothers me a little and would like any info on reliability.
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 362 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject:
Bill,
I have not completed building the "920" so I cannot tell you about reliability yet, sorry. I am copying "build 36" that Matt Rambow of CNW has built, I love that maroon commando.
RGM Motors England has the complete 920 setup for 159 pounds & use the existing gudgeon pins. That is what I am using.
With the brass cage "superblends" in the bottom end, a bit of blueprinting and not flogging the guts out of the engine, I don't see any more problems than you normally have owning N rt ns !!
The last week I have been trying to source an electrical fault.......
As a last straw, took it to the local bike sparky, unfortunately, he was not able to solve the problem also in 1.5 hours of trying.
I actually went and looked at new Harleys & the "Star" Yamahas, I looked & looked....but I am afraid I am "seriously infected" by the Commando also, so I will have patience once more & fix the problem.
Hi folks!
According to that front brake discussion:
A braided stainless steel hose and the RGM sleeved master cylinder should solve all your problems. At a very reasonable price ( $ 100 roundabout).
Or if you want ultimate power braking, go for the CNW or Norvil system.
Sets you back ca. $ 1000,00. Gosh. Do we need that? Well, it’s just fun and enthusiasm that keeps us going, isn’t it?
Thanks for changing the topic though… it’s getting mixed up again (AND I LOVE IT).
Back to some more questions: Is it worth fitting a primay belt drive? The conversion si not that deer and you keep the primary drive leak-free. That ain’t bad, isn’t it?
Now this is getting interesting. I have asked many people with belt primaries why they did it and if they would do it again. I have been surprised at the answers. Save weight, reduce vibration, stop oil leaks, smoother running, etc. I can see for a race bike you can definitely save some weight. But for a street bike, the cost seems a bit high for the so-called advantage.
Who on the list have done this and what are your findings?
Joined: 25 Jun 2004 Posts: 86 Location: The Great White North
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:48 am Post subject: Stopping Primary Leaks
As far as stopping primary leaks, I have been using Permatex #2 Non-hardening gasket eliminator, as a supplement to the stock seal. So far it's 6 for 6, including a couple of primarys that would not stop leaking for love nor money. Just clean all gasket sufaces, install a new seal rubber, apply a THIN layer of sealant to both surfaces, let it tack up, and install the cover. The bit that squeezes out will have to be cleaned up with brake cleaner, as the sealant sticks to the aluminum like sh!!t to a wool blanket. That is why the the application should be kept thin!
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At the end of 1967 the Norton Commando was announced.
The Norton Commando was greeted with a certain amount of scepticism because on first sight the commando appeared to comprise of the old Norton Dominator twin cylinder engine mounted at an inclined angle in a set of new cylinder parts.
It was not realized that the new Norton Commando Isolastic method of engine suspension damped out all engine vibration and produced a machine which had uncanny smoothness for a vertical twin. In due course the critics were silenced and the Norton Commando had the distinction of being regarded as the first of todays so called superbikes. There can be little doubt that the original design concept of the Norton Commando has proved correct, since comparatively few modifications of any real consequence have been made since production commenced during 1968.
Now nearly 40 years later Norton Commando riders like us are a breed of our own, and as far as we are concerned its still more fun to go for a blat on the old Norton Commando, and fast. As a Norton Commando owner and enthusiast, my goal here is to promote and give credit to those who keep the Norton name going.
It is more deserving to give credit to the Commando itself, for after all these years it continues to be respected. The original Commando designers like John Favill are those who deserve the credit for developing this incredible motorcycle.
The Norton Commando Roadster and Interstate of the late seventies, never died. Although the Norton Villiers factory dispersed the tradition lived on. Today Kenny Dreer in the USA is developing the new 952 CC Norton. What a great looking bike this is, and its engineering is still based on the original layout. It will be interesting to see how the new 952CC Norton does in todays tough motorcycle market. One thing is for sure, I would own one if I could afford it.
It's been a very interesting discussion though.
rt