Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1848 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:18 am Post subject:
grandpaul wrote:
That frame stamping on the tank/coil mount flange is not original.
Grandpaul,
Why would you consider the part number stamp to be non-original? I can't see anybody going to the trouble of researching and stamping the part number on the frame using what looks like the correct size numbers? Although the 064140 is the Mk1/1A frame part number? The frame does appear to have the Mk2/2A inner shock mounting plates in the original photo? Maybe the inner shock plates were modified before the change to the Mk2/2A 065404 number?
I do agree with Ron L that the headstock plate would normally be stamped with the engine/gearbox number and not the frame number.
Maybe it could have been changed because the numbers did not match, and could either be misinterpreted or judged to be wrong by the Swiss police or vehicle registration department, but I have no idea what the documentation requirements would be for Switzerland?
The model type "MK1A" stamp isn't normally found on other engines, but could that have been a Swiss market requirement? Maybe the stamp would have been applied by the importer or dealer?
The engine and gearbox stamps look genuine enough.
The model type "MK1A" stamp isn't normally found on other engines
Les,
I believe that is an N not a K.
I still like my theory. The bike was wrecked at some time and new frame ordered. The part number was stamped on the replacement frame for inventory purposes to not confuse it with the 065404 part. A new frame plate was stamped with the frame number by the person who converted the bike and probably did not have access to the original frame plate. Logical story anyway.
I have never seen a frame with the part number stamped on it. Has any one on the forum?
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 533 Location: Laredo (south) Texas
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:30 am Post subject:
I currently have, parked in my garage, sitting on my bike lift, sitting on my shelves, and out in my shed, no less than 6 Commando frames, and 5 engines.
NONE have either stamping on the tank/coil mount bracket of the frame or stamping on the engine as shown in the "MN1A" photo.
Also, I have bought and sold 3 other Commandos in the last 2 years, none of them had that stamping either.
Further, I have scrutinized literally dozens of Commandos in the last 20 years and have DEFINITELY never seen either of those stampings.
"Dash or No Dash in the frame part number located between the 06 and the 4140 (73), 5404 (74) and 5632 (75E-Start) on the front of the left front tank mount."
The frame part number can be stamped very faintly in smalldigits so faint that a coat of paint or corrosion could hide it.
Ron L,
I'd say that part number in the photo was some kind of machine stamp or block stamp? As the same number would be used again and again?
The numbers appear to be perfectly aligned, spaced and of equal depth and I really doubt that anybody would take the trouble to do that in order to replicate a number that is probably not required to be recorded anyway?
As the same amount of trouble wasn't used to stamp the (more important) plate number by the looks of it.
If I remember correctly, it was Les Emery of Norvil that told me of the part number stamp, otherwise I'd have probably missed it myself?
OK could be MN1A = *Mark Nummer (Number) 1A* possibly?
"Another point of identification for 850 frames is the part number stamped on the left gas tank mount facing forward.
064140 is 1973
065404 is 1974
Don't get excited if your '74 has a 064140. Norton probably had left over frames while producing the '74 model. My '74 JPN was like this."
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 25 Location: Switzerland
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject:
Seems to be that i have a interesting bike . O.K. one thing is, in Switzerland it is the Law to have the correct engine, in the correct frame with the correct exhaust system as the manufacturer it has build ! You can replace a 850 with a period correct 850, but never a 750 with a 850. If you want to do something like this, you have to pass a state test procedure with your bike ! So, if you want to do that without trouble, you restamp your engine/frame ( i have never done such things, i have only heard ) It's possible that the MK1 (MN1) stamping is a swiss market unique ( to identify the engine ). All early US car's have never had a stamped VIN number to the frame, except the cars in switzerland. Reason: a attached VIN plate can removed and reused, a stamped VIN can't !
My wish is to know the correct production date from engine and frame, so i can build my bike troublefree with the parts that fit. I build my car's and bikes for fun, to ride, to wrench ...I know it isn't the "all is correct resto", but the big plus is, i can enjoy it, without to worry about to damage a unique bike/car like a combat or a 71' hemicuda. I do a lot of modifications to my car's, but always with a close to factory look,so it's fun to see the peoples scratching their heads.
Enjoy your rides, you will see the tears in grandma's eyes when she gets her youth back !
Thanks all for their support.
Marco
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1848 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject:
4onthefloor wrote:
O.K. one thing is, in Switzerland it is the Law to have the correct engine, in the correct frame with the correct exhaust system as the manufacturer it has build ! You can replace a 850 with a period correct 850, but never a 750 with a 850.
The frame and frame VIN plate do seem to be stamped with a Mk2 (F1) frame number, but the plates can be changed easily enough, however the frame is stamped with a Mk1 part number which seems a little odd, but all sorts of strange things happened at the Norton factory - so who knows!
Commando Mk2 production commenced during late 1973 apparently, so both Mk1/1A and early Mk2/2A models could both be technically described as 1973 production models, even if the frame did not originally belong with that engine and gearbox they could be classed as being from the same production year?
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 533 Location: Laredo (south) Texas
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject:
I will admit that 3 of the frames I have at this moment are all powdercoated and could be hiding faint stampings, but I doubt it.
Then again, the 4th chassis is a bare, lightly rusted one, also with no stamping.
Lastly, I must admit that I didn't remove the tank from my '75 Mark III to examine it, I just ran my fingers underneath and felt nothing but the smooth original paint.
I'm not going to move a pile of parts 3 bikes deel to double-check the 6th frame.
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 Posts: 12 Location: Wollongong Australia
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: swiss norton
I checked my 3/75 MkIII frame for a number on the left coil/engine mount. The number stamped into the mount is 065632. I checked the NZ company British Spares price parts list and that part no. is listed and the no. 064140 reverts to 065632. My frame is metric in tube size.
Ian.
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 25 Location: Switzerland
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:27 am Post subject:
I'll contact the guy who importet the norton bikes in switzerland, maybe he knows a little bit more.
Norton has had financial trouble in the early seventies, in case of many engine damages and quality problems. Maybe they put together what's hanging around, engine, frames and more. I'll report you, if i know any more!
P.S: has anyone know, that Chrysler an GM has had an assembling plant in the 60's for their cars in switzerland ?
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At the end of 1967 the Norton Commando was announced.
The Norton Commando was greeted with a certain amount of scepticism because on first sight the commando appeared to comprise of the old Norton Dominator twin cylinder engine mounted at an inclined angle in a set of new cylinder parts.
It was not realized that the new Norton Commando Isolastic method of engine suspension damped out all engine vibration and produced a machine which had uncanny smoothness for a vertical twin. In due course the critics were silenced and the Norton Commando had the distinction of being regarded as the first of todays so called superbikes. There can be little doubt that the original design concept of the Norton Commando has proved correct, since comparatively few modifications of any real consequence have been made since production commenced during 1968.
Now nearly 40 years later Norton Commando riders like us are a breed of our own, and as far as we are concerned its still more fun to go for a blat on the old Norton Commando, and fast. As a Norton Commando owner and enthusiast, my goal here is to promote and give credit to those who keep the Norton name going.
It is more deserving to give credit to the Commando itself, for after all these years it continues to be respected. The original Commando designers like John Favill are those who deserve the credit for developing this incredible motorcycle.
The Norton Commando Roadster and Interstate of the late seventies, never died. Although the Norton Villiers factory dispersed the tradition lived on. Today Kenny Dreer in the USA is developing the new 952 CC Norton. What a great looking bike this is, and its engineering is still based on the original layout. It will be interesting to see how the new 952CC Norton does in todays tough motorcycle market. One thing is for sure, I would own one if I could afford it.
) It's possible that the MK1 (MN1) stamping is a swiss market unique ( to identify the engine ). All early US car's have never had a stamped VIN number to the frame, except the cars in switzerland. Reason: a attached VIN plate can removed and reused, a stamped VIN can't !