Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject:
One extra thing to remember with the rear Lockheed master cylinder is not to disturb the the two nuts that are locked together on the pushrod unless it is completely necessary.
If the nuts have been moved, then the distance between the face of the large nut with the groove for the boot and the alloy casting must be set to between 8.9-9.4mm (0.35"-0.37") with the pushrod set in the brake fully off position.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject:
Too late, L.A.B., I've already disturbed them is search of a way to disconnect the brake pedal return spring. The factory manual does cover the resetting of the nuts.
However, the manual says: "Disconnect the brake pedal return spring then remove the nut and washer and withdraw the master cylinder operating lever.:
How does one "disconnect the brke pedal return spring."?
Wait! I just discovered Section E6!! "Removing and Servicing the Rear Brake Pedal Spindle." There's even a diagram!
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject:
Tulsaalva wrote:
Too late, L.A.B., I've already disturbed them is search of a way to disconnect the brake pedal return spring.
However, the manual says: "Disconnect the brake pedal return spring then remove the nut and washer and withdraw the master cylinder operating lever.:
That actually refers to the brake pedal nut and washer at the inner end of its pivot which holds the operating lever on the squared end of the spindle, and is nothing to do with the two pushrod nuts mentioned previously, as the operating lever has a trunnion which is locked to the pushrod by the two trunnion locking nuts that are used to set the pedal height?
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 492 Location: Laredo (south) Texas
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject:
The big bugger is turning the male part of the master cylinder the correct distance into the female part, then aligning it perfectly within one turn, to the point nearest exactly correct, for the cylinder's plunger to operate properly.
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject:
grandpaul wrote:
The big bugger is turning the male part of the master cylinder the correct distance into the female part, then aligning it perfectly within one turn, to the point nearest exactly correct, for the cylinder's plunger to operate properly.
I can give Al the Lockheed rear master cylinder assembly instructions, if he needs them?
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Rear Master Cylinder Clean Up
L.A.B. wrote:
grandpaul wrote:
The big bugger is turning the male part of the master cylinder the correct distance into the female part, then aligning it perfectly within one turn, to the point nearest exactly correct, for the cylinder's plunger to operate properly.
I can give Al the Lockheed rear master cylinder assembly instructions, if he needs them?
I'd like to have those instructions to add to my factory manual, L.A.B.
The rear master cylinder is cleaned and back together. I can't say It's been rebuilt because all the parts needed were not included with the front master cylinder kit that I had and used. If the parts were included I used them, of course. If not, I cleaned them thoroughly and reused them. The one rubber part that was torn and not usable was included in the kit. Pretty lucky, that!
The inside of that master cylinder was a sight to behold! I'm talking serious crud! The three ports in the piston were not totally clogged but were mighty close to it! The holes that admit fluid from the reservoir were also close to clogged.
I had a terrible time getting the spring, piston, etc., assembly out of the cylinder! Even after I dug through the thick rusty mud, found the snap ring (which was not properly seated) and removed it, I couldn't get the assembly to slide out. Even 120 pounds of air pressure didn't budge it. Finally, I found that a deep 11MM socket fit the bore perfectly. I inserted it and tapped it gently with a small hammer. I guess the vibration and constant movement of the spring up and down finally ate away the crud allowing the assembly to eventually become dislodged and come out.
I scrubbed the parts in DOT 4 with a toothbrush, scotchbrite and an emery board stolen from my wife's fingernail polish kit, being careful not to score or damage the metal parts but to remove and polish away the rust deposits. After this step I poured the rusty muddy brake fluid into a recycling container, cleaned the wash pan, and did the operation all over again in clean brake fluid. I'm fairly pleased with the results, but if I had known what was inside that master cylinder, I'd have seriously considered ordering a new one!
I reassembled it exactly the way it came apart, installing the snap ring properly this time, and screwed the male portion into the female part to the point where it was before disassembly. The grub screw was no problem to fit.
The master cylinder had two wave washers installed but the rebuild kit came with an equally thin but not wavy single one. I used the new flat washer as I had done on the front master cylinder. I hope that was not a bad decision.
Tomorrow I plan to install the master cylinder on the bike, clean the brake line and caliper, and bleed the system.
I do have a bit of foreboding about the spring and lever adjustment so any tips would be gratefully accepted.
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Rear Master Cylinder Clean Up
Tulsaalva wrote:
I'd like to have those instructions to add to my factory manual
OK Al, I will email them to you.
Actually, the assembly instructions are pretty much the same as for the front unit, the main difference being that the rear unit has a pipe connection for the remote reservoir for Triumphs, instead of the reservoir being mounted directly onto the cylinder barrel as on the front brake assembly, or the Norton 850 Mk III rear unit.
Tulsaalva wrote:
The rear master cylinder is cleaned and back together. I can't say It's been rebuilt because all the parts needed were not included with the front master cylinder kit that I had and used.
The master cylinder had two wave washers installed but the rebuild kit came with an equally thin but not wavy single one. I used the new flat washer as I had done on the front master cylinder. I hope that was not a bad decision.
As far as I know, there should only be a single wave washer (between the piston and cup, see F8, Fig.13/Fig.14 diagrams in your manual) I don't know why you had two, unless the unit has been rebuilt before? Can you say what you meant when you said "I used the new flat washer as I had done on the front master cylinder." As I'd expect you to find a single wave washer in the front assembly, and one flat and one wave washer in the repair kit?
Generally, the repair kit contains enough parts to rebuild either one front or one rear master cylinder assembly, so you'd need two repair kits to do two cylinders properly.
Which means that you will have parts left over, some of which do not seem to fit anywhere? Those parts being a flat washer and a thinner secondary seal, as they are meant to be used with the very early front master cylinder pistons which were different.
So you should only replace like with like, although using the flat washer instead of the wave washer may not cause any problems? Personally, I'd want to change it for a wave washer, even if it meant using an old one, as they don't seem to deteriorate?
Tulsaalva wrote:
I do have a bit of foreboding about the spring and lever adjustment so any tips would be gratefully accepted.
Setting the lever position on the pushrod should be a reasonably straightforward job?
As the adjustment of the lever trunnion really does no more than set the brake pedal height, just make sure it is set so there is a gap of at least 1/16" between the pedal and the footrest, with the brake fully off (manual F1 Fig.4)
You may find you need a 'spring pulling tool' (made from a length of wire, with a loop one end to hook on the spring, and pulling handle at the other end) in order to get the spring back on the lever?
_______________________________________
Also,
If you study the manual F8 Fig.14 sectioned diagram closely, you should see that the washer (item 7) is a dished type, which as far as I know was later replaced by the wave washer.
And another couple of things worth checking, is that the tiny pin hole in the rubber part of the new check valve (3) has actually been punched out? Also it is worth checking the spring (4) (not supplied in the repair kit) carefully for corrosion by bending it, once when I did that it distorted like a piece of soft wire where it had been attacked by corrosion!
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Rear Master Cylinder
Thanks for all the suggestions, L.A.B. I intend take the unit apart and use them as soon as I understand other problems. First some history on the bike.
The company I worked for in Germany sold the bike to an American serviceman. On his ride home, a car entered the road in front of him, causing him to have to brake hard and take evasive action. No accident occurred
The leading edge of the rear wheel went to the right in the swinging arm and hit the master cylinder, causing a loss of fluid. I'm not sure how that happened.
Meriden sent us a complete new assembly including rear swinging arm, tire, caliper, master cylinder, etc., all installed. They also discounted the bike because the customer insisted on a new motorcycle.
I bought the bike but resold it to another employee who eventually didn't pay me for it. I had moved back to the states in the meantime so he shipped the bike to me here in Oklahoma. I put it in storage where it's been until I took it out to make it run again last autumn. Pirate (my friend) never mentioned any braking problems.
Other than the extremely dirty condition, there was nothing remarkable except for the following:
1. There were two wave washers installed.
2. The snap ring was improperly installed.
3. A piece came out that looked like a push pin (An item our American women call a "straight pin," commonly used for sewing.) except it was much thinner and had a round ball on one end with a sharp point on the other.
4. The smaller of the two holes on the top of the master cylinder appears to not have been drilled all the way through. I can see (through the large hole) the spring/piston assembly move when I push the rod but not when I look through the small hole.
The number cast into the bracket is 3715-223C. Also cast below the number are two large upper-case letters: "AH."
I have carefully adjusted the unit according to Lockheed's instructions (sent to me by L.A.B.) Unlike the front master cylinder, no air passes through the small hole after this adjustment. Even if I operate the push rod, no air will flow when I blow through the end where the banjo connects.
I'm beginning to think that this master cylinder was manufactured when a certain employee was having a bad day.
Knowing Pirate, he could have driven the bike with no rear brake, accepting it's lack as merely a part of his difficulties with life.
Should I drill the hole all the way through?
Should I bite the bullet, shell out another $220 and buy a new master cylinder?
Should I do the first and, if necessary, do the second choice?
I'm looking forward to working on the Norton with its mechanical brakes!
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Master Cylinder
Tulsaalva wrote:
3. A piece came out that looked like a push pin (An item our American women call a "straight pin," commonly used for sewing.) except it was much thinner and had a round ball on one end with a sharp point on the other.
Sounds more like a dressmaking pin, I think? But whatever it is, I don't think it should be there!
Tulsaalva wrote:
4. The smaller of the two holes on the top of the master cylinder appears to not have been drilled all the way through. I can see (through the large hole) the spring/piston assembly move when I push the rod but not when I look through the small hole.
Should I drill the hole all the way through?
The smaller of the two holes is about 1/8" diameter but only the outer part it should not be drilled all the way through to the cylinder bore at that diameter as the 1/8" dia. part is a counterbore, so don't mistake it for the actual bleed hole which is at the bottom of it, and I'd guess is about 20-25 thou diameter, and if that becomes blocked it can look as if it isn't actually there at all?
If it is a blockage then a piece of fine stiff wire (a single wire from a wire brush?) can be used to clear it.
Tulsaalva wrote:
The number cast into the bracket is 3715-223C. Also cast below the number are two large upper-case letters: "AH."
3715-223C is the number I would expect to fiund on the rear master cylinder casting. Could AH actually be "8 H" with the H squashed? Which could be the ID of the casting manufacturer?
Tulsaalva wrote:
Unlike the front master cylinder, no air passes through the small hole after this adjustment. Even if I operate the push rod, no air will flow when I blow through the end where the banjo connects.
Try unscrewing the barrel assembly one full turn? If that doesn't do it, then either the tiny hole is blocked or it isn't drilled, or the hole in the check valve is missing?
Tulsaalva wrote:
I'm beginning to think that this master cylinder was manufactured when a certain employee was having a bad day.
Or somebody has dismantled it before?
Tulsaalva wrote:
Should I bite the bullet, shell out another $220 and buy a new master cylinder?
Provided there's no damage or corrosion to the bore, and the piston is OK, then I see no reason not to re-use it, provided you get the bleed hole problem sorted?
In the UK the barrels only, or barrel assemblies can be bought considerably cheaper than the complete units, as it is only the barrel parts that really wear out or corrode and need to be replaced. And stainless steel barrel assemblies are available.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Rear Master Cylinder ... Starting over again
You were right as usual, Les. The small hole was clogged. I cleaned it with a dressmakers pin and followed up with a paper clip that more closely fit the hole.
I took the master cylinder apart again to be sure not to damage the interior parts while unplugging the small hole. I also removed the flat washer and replaced it with one wave washer. There was a hole in the new check valve. I did not replace the dressmakers pin.
I did the adjustment again using the Lockheed instructions and am happy to report that air flows just like it's supposed to.
The master cylinder is fitted to the bike and the brake pedal, "generously greased," is adjusted. The spring was not so difficult. I had a tool that did it fairly easily although the darned thing is quite strong when one is pulling on it.
I'm having more difficulty fitting the rubber hose from the reservoir to the master cylinder than I care for. Working around the frame tubes makes it difficult! I wish I'd had the foresight to fit the hose before installing the master cylinder. Around 5:30PM, I opted for the national news and a cold German beer.
Tomorrow is another day and I think I won't have to work on Sixteen's 924. I found an o-ring at the local hardware store that seems to have corrected the wandering idle. It's holding steadily at 800 rpm with the air conditioning on. I'll probably drop it back to 700 or even 650. Petrol jumped another ten cents today.
Hopefully, tomorrow I can devote enough time to the Bonny to finish it up.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Master Cylinder
L.A.B. wrote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
3. A piece came out that looked like a push pin (An item our American women call a "straight pin," commonly used for sewing.) except it was much thinner and had a round ball on one end with a sharp point on the other.
Sounds more like a dressmaking pin, I think? But whatever it is, I don't think it should be there!
I didn't either, so I left it out.
Quote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
The number cast into the bracket is 3715-223C. Also cast below the number are two large upper-case letters: "AH."
3715-223C is the number I would expect to fiund on the rear master cylinder casting. Could AH actually be "8 H" with the H squashed? Which could be the ID of the casting manufacturer?
It's definitely "AH," Les. I have no idea what it means.
Quote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
I'm beginning to think that this master cylinder was manufactured when a certain employee was having a bad day.
Or somebody has dismantled it before?
I found a place on the side of the master cylinder that was apparently made when the rear tire went sideways during the customer's evasive maneuver. Therefore, I have to assume the same rear master cylinder was used. At the time the bike had less than 100 kilometers on it. It only has 14,000 now so I doubt the rear master cylinder has been opened before. Anything is possible, though.
Quote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
Should I bite the bullet, shell out another $220 and buy a new master cylinder?
Provided there's no damage or corrosion to the bore, and the piston is OK, then I see no reason not to re-use it, provided you get the bleed hole problem sorted?
In the UK the barrels only, or barrel assemblies can be bought considerably cheaper than the complete units, as it is only the barrel parts that really wear out or corrode and need to be replaced. And stainless steel barrel assemblies are available.
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Master Cylinder ... Starting over again
Tulsaalva wrote:
I'm having more difficulty fitting the rubber hose from the reservoir to the master cylinder than I care for. Working around the frame tubes makes it difficult!
I noticed in your photo on page 2, that what appears to be the reservoir hose is incorrectly routed, as it appears to be going upwards and backwards from the master cylinder area? As it should go forward and upwards and be hidden by the side panel, as the pipe spigot on the master cylinder connection should be pointing forward?
Also that hose is also a much thicker-walled type than normal, and that could be the reason why the pipe has been re-routed, as it would be too large to go through the gap between the frame and swing arm immediately behind the pivot where it ought to go?
My own Bonneville also has a small Z shaped guide bracket which fits at the rear of the engine plate/frame mounting bolt and keeps the pipe away from the swing arm.
Tulsaalva wrote:
Petrol jumped another ten cents today.
It did the same here too a few weeks ago, so is now around £1.20 a Litre in the UK (I make that $9.10 per US Gallon).
Tulsaalva wrote:
The number cast into the bracket is 3715-223C. Also cast below the number are two large upper-case letters: "AH."
It's definitely "AH," Les. I have no idea what it means.
The "8 H" I read off my T160's rear unit, but I had a look in better light and it is actually "B H" and not 8 H.
I also checked the one on my Bonneville this time, and that is indeed "A H".
The A or B markings would seem to either identify the castings in some way or maybe it just identifies the casting pattern that was used? Either way both units appear to be identical, and I've rebuilt both units with no problems. The "H" I would guess to be some type of manufacturer's mark, as Norton front brake master cylinders also have that H mark cast in to them?
I think you are still working from the '73-'78 manual? So the instructions given for bleeding the rear brake will not apply, as your model has the later overhead caliper.
In order to bleed the overhead caliper unit, the torque arm must be disconnected, the R/H shock removed from its lower mounting, and the wheel spindle/axle nut loosened, so that the caliper and mounting plate can be swung forward far enough to place the caliper in a near vertical position and so placing the bleed nipple uppermost.
If the caliper isn't placed in the upright position for bleeding, then you will not be able to remove all the air from the caliper.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 121 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Rear Master Cylinder ... Starting over again
L.A.B. wrote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
I'm having more difficulty fitting the rubber hose from the reservoir to the master cylinder than I care for. Working around the frame tubes makes it difficult!
I noticed in your photo on page 2, that what appears to be the reservoir hose is incorrectly routed, as it appears to be going upwards and backwards from the master cylinder area? As it should go forward and upwards and be hidden by the side panel, as the pipe spigot on the master cylinder connection should be pointing forward?
Also that hose is also a much thicker-walled type than normal, and that could be the reason why the pipe has been re-routed, as it would be too large to go through the gap between the frame and swing arm immediately behind the pivot where it ought to go?
My own Bonneville also has a small Z shaped guide bracket which fits at the rear of the engine plate/frame mounting bolt and keeps the pipe away from the swing arm.
That hose has been replaced, Les. The rubber was cracked. Besides, it looked suspiciously like a BMW fuel hose, with the woven cloth cover. I suspect the original hose was the source of the brake fluid leak when the tire went sideways and was replaced when the new parts from Meriden were fitted.
Although the new hose has been rerouted to a more forward position, you're absolutely right that it is too big to fit between the swing arm and the frame. I'll pop over to the hardware store and see if they have a thinner walled replacement.
L.A.B. wrote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
Petrol jumped another ten cents today.
It did the same here too a few weeks ago, so is now around £1.20 a Litre in the UK (I make that $9.10 per US Gallon).
It's George Bush's fault.
L.A.B. wrote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
The number cast into the bracket is 3715-223C. Also cast below the number are two large upper-case letters: "AH."
It's definitely "AH," Les. I have no idea what it means.
The "8 H" I read off my T160's rear unit, but I had a look in better light and it is actually "B H" and not 8 H.
I also checked the one on my Bonneville this time, and that is indeed "A H".
The A or B markings would seem to either identify the castings in some way or maybe it just identifies the casting pattern that was used? Either way both units appear to be identical, and I've rebuilt both units with no problems. The "H" I would guess to be some type of manufacturer's mark, as Norton front brake master cylinders also have that H mark cast in to them?
I think you are still working from the '73-'78 manual? So the instructions given for bleeding the rear brake will not apply, as your model has the later overhead caliper.
In order to bleed the overhead caliper unit, the torque arm must be disconnected, the R/H shock removed from its lower mounting, and the wheel spindle/axle nut loosened, so that the caliper and mounting plate can be swung forward far enough to place the caliper in a near vertical position and so placing the bleed nipple uppermost.
If the caliper isn't placed in the upright position for bleeding, then you will not be able to remove all the air from the caliper.
Which is exactly why I got out of bed a few minutes ago and came upstairs to the computer to ask you about this situation. The manual I have does not cover the peculiarities of the T140D.
There are two 3/8" X 24 threaded holes in the caliper, one on the back and one on the side. The hydraulic line is fitted to the rear one and the bleed valve on the side. The front caliper is fitted the same way.
Are they interchangeable? When the caliper is rotated forward, the back hole is exactly on top, which would make an ideal place for the bleed valve. I've tried and can fit the hydraulic line on the side. The bleed valve fits nicely in the back hole but I'm unsure if there is a flare inside or if such flares might be different for the banjo bolt and the bleed valve.
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1782 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Rear Master Cylinder ... Starting over again
Tulsaalva wrote:
Are they interchangeable?
You could change them around - but I wouldn't advise it.
Both holes do have the flare at the bottom, the rear caliper is as far as I am aware, identical to the front one (same part number) the front normally has a rigid flared brake pipe and sleeve nut fitting into the caliper and not a banjo fitting so the brake line hole is not bored as deep, and the rear underslung caliper (same caliper) also had the flared fitting before *1980* (See edit below).
The bleed holes are drilled deeper, so if you swapped the fittings over then the bleed valve would not be held by as many threads.
Tulsaalva wrote:
When the caliper is rotated forward, the back hole is exactly on top, which would make an ideal place for the bleed valve.
It would be true to say that with the caliper in the vertical position that the banjo entry point would be highest, however, the angles of the two drillings are different, the banjo hole being more vertical, but the "lower" bleed hole is bored nearer to the horizontal, which actually places the internal bleed valve drilling higher than the banjo drilling.
So in my opinion, there's no need to swap the fittings over.
*Edit________________________________
Just to avoid any confusion, the T140D models had the overhead caliper from 1979, the standard E models continued to use the underslung caliper for 1979.
Last edited by L.A.B. on Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
At the end of 1967 the Norton Commando was announced.
The Norton Commando was greeted with a certain amount of scepticism because on first sight the commando appeared to comprise of the old Norton Dominator twin cylinder engine mounted at an inclined angle in a set of new cylinder parts.
It was not realized that the new Norton Commando Isolastic method of engine suspension damped out all engine vibration and produced a machine which had uncanny smoothness for a vertical twin. In due course the critics were silenced and the Norton Commando had the distinction of being regarded as the first of todays so called superbikes. There can be little doubt that the original design concept of the Norton Commando has proved correct, since comparatively few modifications of any real consequence have been made since production commenced during 1968.
Now nearly 40 years later Norton Commando riders like us are a breed of our own, and as far as we are concerned its still more fun to go for a blat on the old Norton Commando, and fast. As a Norton Commando owner and enthusiast, my goal here is to promote and give credit to those who keep the Norton name going.
It is more deserving to give credit to the Commando itself, for after all these years it continues to be respected. The original Commando designers like John Favill are those who deserve the credit for developing this incredible motorcycle.
The Norton Commando Roadster and Interstate of the late seventies, never died. Although the Norton Villiers factory dispersed the tradition lived on. Today Kenny Dreer in the USA is developing the new 952 CC Norton. What a great looking bike this is, and its engineering is still based on the original layout. It will be interesting to see how the new 952CC Norton does in todays tough motorcycle market. One thing is for sure, I would own one if I could afford it.
and followed up with a paper clip that more closely fit the hole.