Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:14 am Post subject:
I'm pleased to report that the T140D breathed fire yesterday. It starts on the first or second kick, usually the first, and runs like a Bonneville should.
The clutch doesn't disengage. I'm planning to disassemble it and separate the plates but I'm wondering if y'all have any suggestions or cautions you'd care to share.
A fellow at the local Brit Bike shop suggested that I place the front wheel against a curb (kerb) and do a "burnout." He said that'd separate the plates. It sounds dangerous to me!
Twenty-five years of disuse have also made the brakes weird, to say the least. The rear brake doesn't work at all while it takes little more than a grip from one's pinky to lock up the front brake.
I've bought o-ring kits for both master cylinders and both calipers and plan to disassemble the whole system, clean it and put it back together again.
There is a shop here in Tulsa that makes braided stainless steel brake lines to order. They aren't too expensive so I'm considering taking that step, too, just in case the rubber in the factory units has deteriorated over the years. Any opinions?
Should I use DOT 5 brake fluid? Why or why not?
I'm most grateful to all y'all for the help in bringing the old motorcycle to this point. Sixteen, Eighteen, and I are all looking forward to riding it when it's finally right.
Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 533 Location: Laredo (south) Texas
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:58 am Post subject:
If the friction plates still have significant material on them (nicely pronounced wear grooves), soak them for a few hours in gasoline or solvent to get out as much of the impregnated oil as possible, then leave them in the sun to dry, turn them over for even drying. If the plates are worn, replace them with cheap Emgo plates (REALLY).
Take the steel plates and turn them in circles on smooth concrete to knock the glaze off, until you get a nice uniform "sanded" surface.
Re-install with the clutch hub through bolts JUST showing through the first thread in the slot of the adjuster screws (makes it a bit hard to turn those screws, but with a special tool or with care, it's not such a big deal).
Turn the engine over while pulling in the clutch and make sure the pressure plate is spinning "true" and not wobbling. If it's wobbling, adjust the appropriate screw(s) to get it to spin true.
Re-adjust the cable by loosening all slack at the lever, then adjust the center adjuster till it just touches, back off 1/4 turn and tighten the locknut. Then remove most of the free cable length at the top of the transmission, then take out all but a tad bit of slack at the lever.
Pour in 1/4 cup engine oil into your primary to re-establish the primary chaincase oil level. THIS IS NOT CLUTCH LUBE - IT'S NOT A "WET" CLUTCH.
Test by pulling in the clutch lever and pushing the kickstarter, it should "slide" through. You should have satisfactory clutch service and no sticking now.
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1848 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject:
Tulsaalva wrote:
The clutch doesn't disengage. I'm planning to disassemble it and separate the plates but I'm wondering if y'all have any suggestions or cautions you'd care to share.
Pulling the clutch and operating the kickstart should free the clutch off eventually? Or put the bike in gear, pull the clutch lever in and rock the bike backwards and forwards until it frees off? Both ways might take a while if the clutch hasn't been freed off for quite a while (25 years!).
Tulsaalva wrote:
There is a shop here in Tulsa that makes braided stainless steel brake lines to order. They aren't too expensive so I'm considering taking that step, too, just in case the rubber in the factory units has deteriorated over the years. Any opinions?
The maximum service life of rubber brake hoses is supposed to be 10 years, so I'd certainly replace them!
I would opt for the braided hoses personally, and I make my own braided hoses up.
"All AP Racing Brake Fluids are Polyalkalene Glycol Ether based and are not a silicone based fluid. AP Racing do not sell and do not recommend using a silicone based brake fluid with any of its products."
______________________________________________
Although I have known owners to use it, apparently without problems, but there is a chance that the rubber piston seals might degrade?
Never mix the two different types of fluid together.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject:
I decided to go with DOT 4, because the old Porsches around here use it, too.
There is no play in the links of the chain and the sprockets seem to be in good shape. I'm going to use the assembly.
The chain is pretty dried out. I started out by soaking it in petrol for a few days. I now have it immersed in a combination of 20/50 engine oil and Molybdenum sitting outside in the Oklahoma sun. The goal is to get some moly atoms to bond with the steel.
I also remember a friend who was fond of cooking his chain in axle grease and letting it cool before reinstalling it. I think that ended when he set fire to his kitchen.
I'd surely entertain the thought of converting to belt drive. I've heard such a kit exists.
Any tips on readying the chain for the road?
Al
Last edited by Tulsaalva on Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject:
I received the parts for the stainless steel brake line system. The banjo bolts don't screw into the master cylinders and the Triumph bolts don't fit the banjos.
I'm hoping to find the right banjo bolt size. Does anyone know the size of these?
I'm going to need three male-male adaptors but I'm pretty sure the same company sells them.
The original brake lines look fine, no cracks or signs of leakage. I may refit them until I sort out the problems with the stainless parts.
The bike is sitting on a stand, missing both wheels and all brake parts. It sure looks a long way away from the highway!
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1848 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject:
Tulsaalva wrote:
The banjo bolts don't screw into the master cylinders and the Triumph bolts don't fit the banjos.
The original thread size of the brake hose fittings/master cylinder/caliper is 3/8" fine SAE (UNF).
Obviously you didn't specify the end fitting thread type to the maker? So there's always the chance they could be metric size (8mm) banjos and bolts? Or some other Imperial size thread form? Most bikes being 'metric' these days some brake line makers may not even think to ask.
If so, then the banjos and bolts need to be changed for 3/8" type, (or 10mm metric banjos will do) but of course metric banjo bolts will be no good?
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:
L.A.B. wrote:
Tulsaalva wrote:
The banjo bolts don't screw into the master cylinders and the Triumph bolts don't fit the banjos.
The original thread size of the brake hose fittings/master cylinder/caliper is 3/8" fine SAE (UNF).
Obviously you didn't specify the end fitting thread type to the maker? So there's always the chance they could be metric size (8mm) banjos and bolts? Or some other Imperial size thread form? Most bikes being 'metric' these days some brake line makers may not even think to ask.
If so, then the banjos and bolts need to be changed for 3/8" type, (or 10mm metric banjos will do) but of course metric banjo bolts will be no good?
That was the problem, L.A.B. I took the old banjo bolts to the hardware store and verified them to be 3/8"X24 (Threads Per Inch). I've got the right ones ordered. I hope.
Now my problem is the frozen clutch. I decided against the put-the-front-tire-against-the-kerb=and-do-a-burnout technique. It seemed a little on the wrong side of wisdom... especially with no brakes.
But I haven't been able to get the primary cover off. I've tapped around it with a soft mallet and the sound and vibration tells me that it's loose around the top, but it won't come off easily. I've been very gentle because I don't want to have to go looking for a new primary cover.
The manual simply says, "Withdraw the primary cover."
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:
grandpaul wrote:
If the friction plates still have significant material on them (nicely pronounced wear grooves), soak them for a few hours in gasoline or solvent to get out as much of the impregnated oil as possible, then leave them in the sun to dry, turn them over for even drying. If the plates are worn, replace them with cheap Emgo plates (REALLY).
Take the steel plates and turn them in circles on smooth concrete to knock the glaze off, until you get a nice uniform "sanded" surface.
Re-install with the clutch hub through bolts JUST showing through the first thread in the slot of the adjuster screws (makes it a bit hard to turn those screws, but with a special tool or with care, it's not such a big deal).
Turn the engine over while pulling in the clutch and make sure the pressure plate is spinning "true" and not wobbling. If it's wobbling, adjust the appropriate screw(s) to get it to spin true.
Re-adjust the cable by loosening all slack at the lever, then adjust the center adjuster till it just touches, back off 1/4 turn and tighten the locknut. Then remove most of the free cable length at the top of the transmission, then take out all but a tad bit of slack at the lever.
Pour in 1/4 cup engine oil into your primary to re-establish the primary chaincase oil level. THIS IS NOT CLUTCH LUBE - IT'S NOT A "WET" CLUTCH.
Test by pulling in the clutch lever and pushing the kickstarter, it should "slide" through. You should have satisfactory clutch service and no sticking now.
Thanks for the tips, Grandpaul! As soon as I figure how to get the primary cover off, I'll take it apart.
I was in Jack's Motorcycles here in Tulsa t'other day when LaNelle suggested I might change the original clutch for a Barnett unit. She showed me the plates. They do look to be quality. One less plate is required but she didn't know exactly how many.
LaNelle said I'd have a "much nicer" clutch. The thing does take an athlete to squeeze the lever. It'd be nice if it were lighter.
Seems the Barnett clutch kits re not too expensive...
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 1848 Location: Norfolk, UK
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject:
Al,
Hopefully, you have removed all 8 screws and 2 nuts? Don't mistake the oil drain screw for one of the eight. The gear pedal also has to be removed first.
Tulsaalva wrote:
The thing does take an athlete to squeeze the lever.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject:
L.A.B. wrote:
Al,
Hopefully, you have removed all 8 screws and 2 nuts? Don't mistake the oil drain screw for one of the eight. The gear pedal also has to be removed first.
Right again, L.A.B. There it was, just forward of the drain screw, hiding under a bulge in the bottom of the cover. I was able to hook fingernails under the bottom while tapping with the plastic mallet and it slowly came off. Thank you!!!
Tulsaalva wrote:
The thing does take an athlete to squeeze the lever.
Quote:
It shouldn't do?
Alright... I'll start squeezing tennis balls. Come to think of it, Sixteen can squeeze tennis balls (and Triumph clutches) and I'll go back to my BMW, which he rode away on a few minutes ago. It's his six month "mensiversary" with his girlfriend and they're going out to dinner. Young love...
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:00 am Post subject:
grandpaul wrote:
Barnett plates are replaced in Triumphs one-for-one.
Okay. I've not gotten the plates out yet. It seems I need a special tool, a screwdriver with a slot in the center of the blade to allow for the bolt. I'll make one but I want to go to the hardware store and buy a screwdriver with a wider blade. It will then go into the Triumph tool kit along with the American allen sockets I've bought.
Quote:
If you have the correct clutch springs, and adjust everything properly, the clutch pull should be "normal", which is to say, not very hard.
I'm sure the clutch springs are the original ones. They have about 14,000 kilometers on them. Since they haven't been compressed for twenty-five years, I'm hoping they won't need replacement. Is there a way to test them?
I did find a bit of a "kink" in the routing of the clutch cable and routed it into a more gentle curve. I'm hoping that lightens up the clutch a bit.
Before we began the disassembly, the clutch on the Bonneville was much harder than on the R80RT. I don't know if that tells you anything.
Thanks, y'all! I have to say again that this project would have stalled long ago without your help. Sixteen has enrolled in a course in Tulsa Tech on motorcycle mechanics during his junior and senior years. It's not that he wants to be a m/c mechanic his whole life but that he wants to earn more than minimum wage at a part-time job while in college. He also wants to be more qualified to work on his own bikes. I can't say I blame him!
Anyway, he's going to be riding the Special to Tulsa Tech this fall semester. I daresay he'll be the envy of the other students, riding a virtual museum piece to school.
By the way, I've decided to sell the Long Range and will begin to get it ready for that after the Triumph is on the road. The instructor at Tulsa Tech will be looking for project bikes to use in classroom instruction and may be interested in the Commando, depending on his other offers. The class is aimed at producing Harley mechanics, so they may not want the Norton. We'll see.
Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:47 am Post subject:
The clutch is out, cleaned and dried. The plates look to be in very good shape so I'll be able to reuse them.
After a bit of experimentation, I learned that the easiest and gentlest way to separate them was to insert a small slot blade screwdriver into the "valley" between the friction material. I had to take them out one at a time in order to work them past the shift lever shaft.
I used a nylon brush to scrub them with petrol three times. The first time the petrol was black after the washing. The third time it didn't change color.
The workshop manual showed the length of the clutch springs to be 1.75". One was. The other two were shorter but no two were the same length. LaNelle at Jack's had Barnett springs in stock for $11.50. She also had the o-ring for the shifter shaft.
Tomorrow I'll finish the installation and adjustment.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
At the end of 1967 the Norton Commando was announced.
The Norton Commando was greeted with a certain amount of scepticism because on first sight the commando appeared to comprise of the old Norton Dominator twin cylinder engine mounted at an inclined angle in a set of new cylinder parts.
It was not realized that the new Norton Commando Isolastic method of engine suspension damped out all engine vibration and produced a machine which had uncanny smoothness for a vertical twin. In due course the critics were silenced and the Norton Commando had the distinction of being regarded as the first of todays so called superbikes. There can be little doubt that the original design concept of the Norton Commando has proved correct, since comparatively few modifications of any real consequence have been made since production commenced during 1968.
Now nearly 40 years later Norton Commando riders like us are a breed of our own, and as far as we are concerned its still more fun to go for a blat on the old Norton Commando, and fast. As a Norton Commando owner and enthusiast, my goal here is to promote and give credit to those who keep the Norton name going.
It is more deserving to give credit to the Commando itself, for after all these years it continues to be respected. The original Commando designers like John Favill are those who deserve the credit for developing this incredible motorcycle.
The Norton Commando Roadster and Interstate of the late seventies, never died. Although the Norton Villiers factory dispersed the tradition lived on. Today Kenny Dreer in the USA is developing the new 952 CC Norton. What a great looking bike this is, and its engineering is still based on the original layout. It will be interesting to see how the new 952CC Norton does in todays tough motorcycle market. One thing is for sure, I would own one if I could afford it.
