In another thread there was a lot of misinformation about Norton racing at Daytona in the 1940's thru the 1960's and I would like to set the facts straight.

Genuine plunger-framed M30 Manx models were raced at Daytona beach in the late 40's and early 50's complete with their magnesium engines, brakes and even DOHC valve gear. They were the same Manx bikes as raced in England with the exception of having to have 7.5:1 compression and kick-start mechanisms added to meet American Motorcycling Association rules. Steve Lancefield and then Francis Beart both went to Daytona with Manx bikes, piloted by various American riders the most famous probably being Dick Klamfoth who won the Daytona 200 more than once on a Manx in this era.

The American motorcycle manufacturers and the Triumph motorcycle company were of course not happy about Norton's Daytona performances. Harley Davidson and Indian along with BSA Chief Walt Brown and Rod Coates, the top Triumph man in the eastern United States was in charge of their racing program and also was a member of the AMA rules committee tirelessly lobbied for rule changes that would favor their marques.

This lobbying and politics kept the featherbed manx and other British OHC racing bikes out of AMA competition thru the early sixties, by which time they were just about obsolete anyway.

Because the Norton featherbed 88 was a production bike, the AMA could not keep it out of competition, and the works racing department began making special "Daytona 88" racers to compete at the Daytona 200 starting in 1953 when two were sent over and they finished with very high placings.

Throughout the fifties these Daytona twins evolved into what was basically a Manx Chassis with a model 88 engine in it. The engines had some tuning which resulted in the "Daytona" camshaft profile, which was incorporated into the production twins in the late fifties. Also the bikes were fitted with a bit higher compression and twin Amal GP carbs. If you run the serial numbers of one of these bikes through the factory records kept in England by the NOC, it will come back as a Norton 88 with the "Daytona 88" option.

The latest wideline Daytona 88 bike I have heard of and know of, is a 1959 model. When the slimline featherbed was introduced for 1960 AMA rules would insist that it would be used in competition.

Doug Hele and the racing department were heavily into developing the Dominator twins in the late 1950's to increase the performance of the road bikes vs. BSA and Triumph offereings, and for use in racing, first in production racing, then looking at it as a good replacement for the heavier, complicated and expensive to produce Manx. Works prepared model 88s began winning production races in 1960 and in 1961 everyone knows that the Domiracer appeared at the Isle of Man and did very well.

Heads with polished ports and big valves, along with twin-carbs and other production racing parts were available from Nortons for the Dominator twins from 1958 onwards. From 1961 onwards performance "SportsSpecials" were sold as complete bikes on the showroom floor which had performance parts as standard equipment.

The last three Daytona 88 racers were prepared over the winter of 61-62 for the daytona 200 that spring. Since the actual Domiracer would be illegal by AMA rules, these three bikes were built with production slimline frames and engine castings. To these were added Domiracer large-rod-journal cranks and rods, bucket tappets, needle-roller cams, a racing magneto and handed Amal GP carbs. Specail alloy tanks, Manx brakes and swingarm were used on the chassis. After 1962 Bracebridge street was closed and the racing shop was sold off to outside vendors, Nortons works racing days were gone forever.

The Berliner corporation who was the distributor for Norton in the USA from the late 1950's onwards had other ideas though. They wanted more Norton racing bikes for the 1964 Daytona race. Since the Norton racing shop was gone, AMC contracted with Paul Dunstall to produce them. Dunstall took four 88ss bikes and built them to racing specs. The engines were standard apart from having milled cylinders to increase compression, along with the addition of racing magnetos, handed Amal GPs and Dunstall exhausts with reverse=cone meggas and a crossover in front of the cylinders between the down pipes. Manx forks and wheels and fenders and special alloy tanks were added. These 1964 88ss bikes dynoed a bit over 50bhp.

Some racing twins were supplied for use other places besides Daytona. A few Daytona 88s were supplied to the Canadian Norton distributor a few times in the 1950s and a few were used in the early fifties to marshal at the Isle of Man races.

For both the Daytona Manx and twin racers, a special set of close-ration gears was used. In England these were known as "Scarborough" gears, and in the USA they were known as the Daytona gear set. Because the AMA required the use of a kick-start mechanism, first gear in the Norton box could by no higher than 2.3:1. So this first gear was used along with close-ratio racing 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. The big jump between first and second was a disadvantage, but it was better than the standard and even lower street first gear ratio.

After the Norton Manx and Matchless G50 were both out of production and the might of Japanese motorcycle manufacturers was brought to bear on the USA and the AMA, the AMA started to let OHC engines and racing frame options into it's racing program.....And then it was left to Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki to battle in the board-room with Harley Davidson and each other over racing rules....

Interesting, Ben.
I don't know how there can have been a "lot of misinformation" when this was only mentioned in about 10 words. ?

And if you refer to Francis Beart, who organised some of these early bikes to race, he notes that the Daytona bikes for 1949 were listed as D11N 21051/2/3.

These are not manx numbers, so these were not manxes ?
Inters were available from the catalog, with all the racing bits as options.
And with a kickstarter, what were they ??

P.S. The pics that Francis Beart shows of these 1949 bikes have aluminium crankcases, so some of what you say is inaccurate.

Cheers.

P.S. Nortons produced all sorts of specials and odd things, for purposes we can only guess at now. I've had a Model 7 plunger frame, circa 1950, in lightweight hi-tensile tubing. Utterly stock standard to look at. Now what was that about ?!!? Cannot imagine that being raced, but who knows...

Bens account also omitted the rigid framed Norton twin that raced at Daytona somewhere in the early 1950s, as Matt mentioned. Pic is in one of the Norton history books.

Keep the inaccuracies coming...
Cheers.

As a sidenote to the above, rigid framed Norton twins were 'legal' to race at Daytona in the early 1950s - because Nortons had sent a batch of 200+ rigid framed dominator twins to Australia in the early 1950s. These were cataloged as the Model 77. Wonder if this was done specifically to get acceptance for a Daytona version racebike. ?

Thoughts ?

Very interesting account. Thanks.

As you probably know, Bob McKeever raced one of the plunger framed Manx's at Daytona in the late 40's. He still has the bike today. I had the privilege of hauling it in my truck one bike week at Daytona. Here's a contemporary picture of Bob with the bike:



Incidentally, the gent on the right is Joe Clements who was Bob's mechanic and worked as an engineer for Ed Link on the original Link flight simulators.

Here's Bob on the bike at Daytona in 1948:

Thanks for the InFo .

Picture above .
An ' old boy ' had one ' just like that ' at the Maitland Swap meet , last weekend .Think he said it was 48 / maybe 49 . " This one was built after the war "
He Stated . Has had it for forty years , raceing it . So its not exactly entirely ' show ' condition . Hes not into e'bay , computors and the like .But it is for sale .
Offers . NOW calm Down . Plunger rear , telescopic front . Says was only raced on hard top / tarseal .Will try to get contact for him if your intrested .

Interesting Steve, thanks.
Compared to Francis Bearts pics, this bike has gained magnesium crankcases !?

http://i53.tinypic.com/zv6add.jpg

The webpage on Bob McKeever mentions he rode a Norton INTER at Daytona.
http://myclassicmotorcycle.blogspot.com ... 500cc.html

Incidentally, the name Bob McKeever, if his initials are R. McK. may have solved another enquiry here about some initials on a featherbed frame...

Its also worth noting that Daytona was run as the Daytona 100 and Daytona 200, so there are more winners and runners around than you would expect...

The 1949 Daytona winning bikes and McKeever's bikes all had magnesium crankcases. Armchair experts will be mislead by photos etc. though...

There is a photo of a 1959 Manx at the Earl's court show in Walker's book on Manx racers with silver crankcases, I suppose they are aluminum too?

Truth is, that the magnesium crankcases of Manx and aluminum cases of International Nortons were often painted silver from the factory. The bikes raced at Daytona in salt spray really needed this paint and anything else that could be found to deal with running in sand and salt.

Magnesium Manx crankcases including those on the 49' Daytona Manxes, had the front engine mounting holes higher than those on aluminum International crankcases, they were right up against the bottom of the cylinder, where the aluminum International cases had the engine mount a distance lower. This is easy to see in photos of the winning 49' Daytona racers.

Manx bikes and Internationals had frames with different cast lugs, if you want to look at photos of the 1949 Daytona racers, it is very plain to see that the front engine mount is the high Manx one that attaches just under the cylinder, aluminum International cases had front mounts lower away from the cylinder.
Also Manx frames had different front fuel tank mounts than Internationals, and the frames on the 49' bikes positively have Manx frames and Manx front tank mounts with the tank resting on an alloy bar. The International front tank mount had a sidecar lug incorporated, absent on Manx frames and the 49' Daytona racers.

Period photos of McKeever's bike will show it with magnesium crankcases, and a good friend of mine has an original 1947 Manx made for racing in the USA, with it's original mag cases, a kickstarter, and Manx serial numbers.
International serial numbers did not have a letter suffix after the "11", the "N" might have supposed to have been an "M" and was just mis-stamped, it is anyone's guess and it is certainly not evidence to argue any point.

The information I present here on Daytona twin's and Manx racers is taken from factory paperwork and actual bikes that myself and close friends and acquaintances own first-hand here in the USA and Canada.

Be interesting to see what the factory records for those numbers shows ?
I notice this is never mentioned.
That M could be a misprint too.

That website mentioned with Bob McKeever calls his bike an Inter ?
This from the man himself...

Remember, all manx items were options for an Inter.
It could be ordered with the whole caboodle.
In prewar times, thats ONLY how a race bike could be ordered....

Tell us about your Daytona Manx, Ben ? Or are you an armchair expert too.

P.S. If Bob McKeevers bike had silver painted crankcases, as did Francis Bearts Daytona bikes, and they have subsequently been restored with dichromated cases, then they haven't been faithfully restored, or the crankcases have been changed ?
Or both, since those elektron cases were prone to cracking ??

So what happens to the case numbers then....

Rohan, sorry but you are not worth any more of my time. You are not here for the bikes or the history, just for yourself.

fin

No answers when someone points out all the nonsense. ?
Even by owners of them.

"Beach sand still in the tacho" 60 years later - yeah sure.
Makes a nice story though.
http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/asp/cla ... .asp?id=69

BTW, this bike differs in many minor details from the bikes Francis Beart shows in pics at the time. After a hard racing life probably not surprising, but a truly accurate restoration as the Daytona bikes its not.

A summary of Norton OHC singles and crankcases used in 1949:

At the bottom of the barrel so to speak, was the standard catalog International with aluminum crankcases and frame with sidecar lug/tank mount. Second photo is Geoff Duke winning the 49' Clubman's TT on such a bike:



Next up the ladder is the standard catalog Manx and it's magnesium crankcases and special frame without sidecar lugs , neither of which are interchangeable with International parts. First photo is Geoff Duke after winning the 1949 Senior Manx Grand Prix on such a bike which was confirmed by Norton works mechanic Charlie Edwards as being just that, a catalog Manx. Second photo is the first and second place Nortons which won the 1949 Daytona 200, identical to Duke's except for the addition of the AMA required kick-start....



The third type of crankcases, those used on factory works-only bikes from the late thirties onwards. These are much taller than those available to the public and have multiple fins for stiffness and cooling running down the front, underneath and around up the back. This type of case was eventually made available on the catalog Manx at the same time the featherbed frame was, and they soldiered on in modified form through the end of Manx production:



Lastly, the list of racing options available for the 1937 Norton International including alloy head and cylinder, and despite common hearsay no options for the frame or crankcases........


As the title of this thread states, it is on the history of Norton Manx singles and 88 twins that ran at Daytona in the 1950's and 1960's. Thanks for anyone who has added real information to this cause. If someone wants to discuss another subject maybe start a different thread for it? Thanks.....

Thanks Ben, more than we expected.
It would still be interesting to know how the Daytona bikes are listed in the Norton records, wouldn't it , and that oddity in the quoted numbers ? Billy Mathews has his hands over the cambox like he is hiding it, and the word Inter or Manx variously keeps cropping up in connection with them.

On the subject of options for prewar Inters, prewar the plunger rear frame and tele forks became available, and some of these got into private hands, so obviously the list of racing options ( in the brochure) is far from the full list. Large fin heads were also available, and those are not listed there either. Magnesium cases are on some prewar race bikes still existing today, so there must have been a source of them then. ?

On postwar bikes, the front fork sliders have the lug there to take the fitting for the manx front brake, should it so be ordered. On all the road bikes. Cost was reportedly prohibitive, but has anyone seen that listed anywhere. ?

A study of the pics that Francis Beart shows and the Daytona bike shown in that museum link shows that the carby bellmouth is almost resting on the oil tank top in Beart pic, but the museum bike has it up well clear. Obviously something significantly different somewhere. Will see if can get a scan to show.

PS. That is an old Inter shown in the catalog view you show - have you noticed that the fork sliders are the earliest steel slider types ? And the gearbox has the round gearbox cover.
Be nice if they showed the current Inter, as manufactured, in the catalog..
They could be ordered with alloy head and cylinder as an option and centre-feed cambox ( anyone seen that options list, and what else is on it - the full range of manx goodies ?)
Don't know what the rules for the Manx GP for Geoff Dukes ride were back then = no race parts fitted ?