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Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Norton Models (not Commando or P11)

Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby beng » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:25 am

Mark Samulson's 1947 Norton Manx. By the official Norton importer's records the first catalog Manx sent to Norton America after WWII along with a sister bike. Mark was a BSA dealer in my area at the same time my father was a Matchless dealer and they raced together in the late fifties and early sixties. Mark is in his seventies and still gets out in one or anther competition event each year either on his Manx or one of his Goldstar BSAs. Engine is stamped B11M on it's magnesium crankcases. Bike has a kickstart gearbox, Mark took the kickstart off and being an ace machinist, made a high first gear for it for better performance in vintage racing events. Of course besides bikes coming over through North American distributors, many Nortons were imported by individuals etc..

Image

Here, some collector shows off his 1951 kickstart Daytona Manx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-bO0We ... er&list=UL
Last edited by beng on Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby beng » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:44 am

Photo from Mick Woollett's book. A Norton "Daytona 88" typical of those the Norton racing department put together and sent over in small batches of between two to four bikes from 1953 through 1962 when Bracebridge street closed down. A number of these are still around intact. A restorer in Canada has two from the mid-fifties, an old racer in Florida has one still which he has had from new when he first raced it at the 1959 beach race, and there is a 1956 example out in California in the hands of a racer who has had it for over fifty years. One of the three 62' bikes as below is still intact and as last raced having been cared for by ex-Norton experimental department and Berliner head technician Heinz Kegler for 47 years....

Image

For fun, Kegler's 1962 Daytona 88, the last and best of the lot, being run here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggb3cz3_ ... ideo_title
Last edited by beng on Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Rohan » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:03 pm

How does a BSA Dealer get delivery of the first 2 Manxes ? !!
(Because there were no Norton Dealers ?).

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4743/daytona88.jpg
Standard pic in all the Norton history books of Doug Heles very capable work in making the dommie into a racebike. A 100+ mph lap by a pushrod twin at the IoM in 1961 made them sit up and take notice. Note the slimline style rear subframe.

Be interesting to see pics of any earlier dommie twins in race guise, especially if at Daytona.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby beng » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:15 pm

Rohan wrote:How does a BSA Dealer get delivery of the first 2 Manxes ? !!


Rohan, where did you get this? Are you that bad of a reader or do you just not care enough to read anything carefully if it is not serving your interests? If this is your general mode of operation then I can see why so many comments you make are fantastical, unfounded, un-documented and silly.

You make statements off the cuff about Norton history and AMA history and never back it up with any actual examples, documents or photos except for ones that prove nothing or that you are wrong.

You have stated that: Competition bikes were banned from AMA racing when that was simply not true, if it were the Harley Davidson WR and KR, catalog racers just like the Manx with no lights, would not have been racing tnere either right?

You assumed that a crankcase was aluminum because it was silver in color and then used that assumption to back up other false and undocumented statements.

Matt Spencer does the same thing, in the thread about the model 88 on ebay he talks about a 1947 500ss twin racer at Daytona with "larger model 99" rod journals. When the Norton twin was not introduced until 1949, the 88ss was not introduced until 1961, and the model 99 has the same size rod journals as the model 88. It is one crazy statement after another.

For the sake of history we have all got to slow down a bit, do some research and refrain from making statements and acting in the name of interests other than the bikes and their history.......

People look for answers to questions about Norton motorcycles on the internet in this day and age, and with stuff like this going on internet research is not worth a penny! Even books are riddled with errors and have to be compared to actual bikes, records, photos and first-hand accounts to get any sort of complete version of the facts and history.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Rohan » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:37 pm

If you would stop making stupid accusations and wild flights of hystrionics and stick to the subject we might get somewhere ? Shades of the NOC and Commando Forums ?

I thought that was a perfectly good question - if a BSA Dealer in England had ordered a pair of new Manxes, how far would they get ?
A short letter thanking them for their interest, and the address of their local Norton Dealer ?

For long spells of American racing, the rules were complex and aimed at excluding certain bikes - after all, 750cc bikes could compete against 500cc bikes - now tell us that wasn't so. ? OHC and DOHC came into it at some point too - and production based too ? - the rule book for this was huge....

This is not new of course - or only the US.
Scotts for many years used the slogan "barred" - their 2 stroke twins were early on excluded, although the advertising continued for years after the rule was rescinded. The very first IoM TT Rules had different fuel consumption limits, and capacities, for singles and twins.

Cheers.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby beng » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:07 am

[quote="Rohan"I thought that was a perfectly good question.[/quote]

It would be a good question, if anyone had ever actually said anything about a BSA dealer getting the first two Manxes, but no one did, so as usual most of what you say has no basis in reality....

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Rohan » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:06 pm

This is your 3rd post on these points, and by now we are all totally confused !

Tell us (more) precisely how a BSA Dealer (your words) acquired a Manx Norton ?

Did or did not your father and this Mark race against each other (your words) on this pair of manx nortons ?

And how it is that a 'catalog manx' (your words) has a kickstart gearbox - my catalog shows a race gearbox, no kickstart. In fact, the words 'kickstarter' and 'manx norton' do not generally go togther...

Some of us are using words very loosely here.
Yes I know this is being picky, but if it is possible to read this in more than one way....

Nice story, once the misinterpreatations are out of the way.
Nice bike too.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby beng » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:09 pm

Rohan wrote:This is your 3rd post on these points, and by now we are all totally confused !

Tell us (more) precisely how a BSA Dealer (your words) acquired a Manx Norton ?

Did or did not your father and this Mark race against each other (your words) on this pair of manx nortons ?

And how it is that a 'catalog manx' (your words) has a kickstart gearbox - my catalog shows a race gearbox, no kickstart. In fact, the words 'kickstarter' and 'manx norton' do not generally go togther...

Some of us are using words very loosely here.
Yes I know this is being picky, but if it is possible to read this in more than one way....

Nice story, once the misinterpreatations are out of the way.
Nice bike too.


1. A BSA Dealer can acquire any brand motorcycle he wishes to the same way anyone else can, by "purchasing" it from whatever party might own it. Mark the BSA dealer also owns a Bultaco and a Model A Ford. He also owns blue jeans, shoes and a pistol and a can of vegetable soup, all bought at the appropriate retailers for those items or from individuals who formerly possessed them. Does that clear it up for you twit?

2. One sentence states that Mark and my father raced together in the fifties and sixties while one was a BSA dealer and one was a Matchless dealer, PERIOD. It does not state that they did this on Norton Manx bikes, that bit of hearsay, as usual you pulled out of whatever dream/fantasy-world or ass your head is stuck in.

3. It is common knowledge that Norton Manx motorcycles sent to North America in the late 1940s and early 1950's were equipped with kick-start mechanisms so to comply with the rules of North American race-sanctioning bodies, in fact it is one of the subjects and points of this entire thread to educate people to the unique features and differences between the Norton racing bikes supplied to North America and those supplied to the rest of the world market.

Rohan, you have the reading comprehension and common sense of a kindergartner or a well trained ape. It might be in your favor to in the future, to talk as very little as possible except when necessary to maintain a supply of food, water, clothing and shelter for yourself.....

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Rohan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:15 pm

You said "catalog manx" - put your money where your mouth is and show us where manxes had kickstarters in any catalog.
And that is the wrong gearbox for that year anyway..

Perhaps your writing 'skills' are the problem, don't give up your day job.....?

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Rohan » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:48 pm

This is Billy Mathews and Francis Beart with a 1949 Daytona Norton - Nortons had enlisted ace tuner Francis Beart to run the operation (after only a 2nd place the previous year) in conjunction with Canadian and US Norton Dealers / Importers (which was it ?)(Who was the US Importer ?).

Note Bill Mathews hands obscuring (totally covering) the dohc cambox. DOHC was new for 1949, maybe someone didn't want to publicise the fact- we still haven't got the inside story on this yet ?
And the silver finish to the crankcases - something restored Daytona bikes don't seem to have managed ?

Image

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby beng » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:08 am

I owe you an apology Rohan, I am sorry if I was mean to you in some way. It is not the place of those with average abilities, intelligence or strength to treat the disabled or challenged badly, but instead to help them. So bearing that in mind:

If you swivel your head towards and look into a Norton catalog or brochure for the year 1962 and take a look at a "catalog" model 88 Norton, it will not look like the photo below will it? No it will not. Yet according to the Norton factory records the bike below is indeed a 1962 Model 88, it simply has the option "Daytona 88", really.

Before Berliner Corporation in New Jersey became a distributor in the United States for Norton in the late 1950s, the importer named "McGill" in Canada imported bikes and spares to North America and supplied many dealers in the United States with such.

You seem to have a fixation on the crankcases of plunger-framed Manx Nortons. If the paint has fallen or been taken off the cases at some point over the last sixty odd years at the discretion of mother nature and various owners, that is supposed to be a big surprise? I was talking to a Norton authority in Canada in the last few weeks who has had his hands on many International and Manx Norton bikes and bits, and holds the records of the Importer McGill. More than half a dozen International Nortons he has worked on have had aluminum paint on their crankcases. Why would Norton paint an aluminum crankcase with aluminum paint? Personally I don't care, I just accept the fact. If I ever find out the reason it will be a bonus but I am not wasting my time looking for it.

I am sure that more than one owner of a plunger Manx Norton has put it together with bare magnesium cases either because they were not aware of the fact that they were ever painted in the first place, but most likely it would be because getting the bike together and running and ready for the next race so they could have fun with it was a lot more important than pleasing someone thousands of miles away who is worrying about the appearance of their bike.....


beng wrote:Image

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Bernhard » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:39 am

Up to the 1960’s the annual Daytona was a beach race, hence the reason for painting the crankcases Sand + sea = salt = alloy attack!
Whilst I am not an expert on the history on the Daytona races as I only came into motorcycling during the mid 1960s……..
I do know that the Norton Manx (or similar) were regular entrants in this race, that is, until all the OHC engines were banned by the AMA
1948 Daytona result See;
http://www.norton.uk.com/hol.htm

Up until 1966/7, the AMA rules banned any OHCs any bikes more than 2 cylinders or over 500cc all to protect a certain manufacturer from Milwaukee, that is until……. a certain ex Norton engineer named Doug Hele blew the rule book wide open when his rider Buddy Elmore won the 1966 Daytona on a 500 Triumph. This later became known as the 500 Daytona.
Last edited by Bernhard on Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby L.A.B. » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:51 am

Bernhard wrote:that is until……. a certain ex Norton engineer named Doug Hele blew the rule book wide open when his rider won the 1970 Daytona on a 500 Triumph. This later became known as the 500 Daytona.


1970?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Tiger_Daytona
http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Broc ... elsOPT.pdf
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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Bernhard » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:26 am


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Re: Norton Manx and 88 twins at Daytona.....

Postby Rohan » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:40 pm

beng wrote:I owe you an apology Rohan, I am sorry


Ben, I don't even know what subject we have now switched to. ?
Explain more, before launching into another of your pyscho babbles ?
Its been said folks empty of facts resort to abuse...

In case its something I said about that 1962 Daytona bike you show from Mick Woolletts book - its pretty much the 1961 Domiracer that came 2nd in the IoM TT - there is a pic of Doug Hele standing beside it in Mick Woolletts book, on the same page you nicked the pic from. I don't have a problem with that - the text says its that. But unless you have any special insights into how its different from the TT bike, whats different for the Daytona bike ? Since it was a good thing, they just built a few more of them...

The problem with the crankcases, Ben, is that you keep slinging words about, like 'catalog', when clearly things are not. A bike 'restored' as a genuine Daytona bike should LOOK like a genuine Daytona bike, yes ? If its not, you have to ask why. (like I did).
In the AMCA scheme of judging things to 100 points, where would that put it. ? (it is shown in the AMA Hall of Fame Museum, afterall ).

P.S. The Norton importer for the US for most of the 1950s was the Indian Sales Co, in case it had slipped your notice. When did this arrangement begin ? And end. Anyone ?
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k50 ... aytona.jpg

Cheers.

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