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Norton 650??

Norton Models (not Commando or P11)

Norton 650??

Postby Norton46 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:18 pm

Hi
Saw the Manxman post, and it got me thinking about the engine/gearbox I have in the shed. So here are some photos of it and am wanting to comfirm a couple things about it.
Is it a Manxman engine or ?
Do all these parts from the same type engine or is it a bunch of bits?
Here is link to album. Have fun looking at the photos, any help or information will be appreciated!
http://s225.photobucket.com/user/Norton47/library/Norton%20650%20Engine%20Gearbox

The head seems to match information from AtlanticGreen for a 650 head, correct numbers and C-C spacing. Appears to have new valves and good exhaust port threads.
Image
Image

The left crankcase has three sets of numbers, forward on the outside of crankcase(normal location)
Image
another set on the left rear. Also what does the vent line fitting for this model look like? Anyone have a Part number?
Image
and a marking of 44 on the inner side. This matches a 44 marking on the right crankcase half outer. These are stamped and I could not find any such marking on the inner of the right side.
Image
Right outer crankcase
Image

Also if you compare the right inner photo with the left inner earlier in the post, you will notice two different mold numbers
Image

The crankshaft has no markings that I could find, however it does have some machining that is different from later models to my experience.
Image
Image

The camshaft has two numbers one is the part number, the other is stamped and was wondering what X1 may mean?
Image
Image

Lastly the timing cover, which has been modified in regards to the tach mounting, I assume someone did not want one. It does have a casting number of T2004
Image

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby dynodave » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:32 pm

It certainly is a 650 from all I have seen. Yours is about 500 units after the one I'm working on which is a manxman. engine code 18 with the rear code of 65, Yours is obviously newer and the rear code is 65 C, My engine # is around 100,000 and the rear code by then is 650C. The crank is 650 and the head is the 88SS/650SS head. If this VIN is originally for a manxman or 650SS or regular 650?, is above my paygrade...Is there no bike with it?
X1 on the cam was supposed to be an indication of hardening.
Last edited by dynodave on Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Norton 650??

Postby Rohan » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:36 pm

Impressions from a quick glance at your pics.
Engine number is mid 1961 - does that still make it within Manxman production ?
You wouldn't/couldn't expect the left and right crankcase halves to have the SAME mold number !
X1 was said to be something to do with the hardening process used on some batches of cams.
And is approx right era to be Manxman.
There is nothing stamped on Norton cams that identifies them, you have to measure lobe heights etc.
Your pic doesn't quite show if the inlet ports are downdraft or not, really. Need a side on view.
Downdraft head could/should/would be Manxman, non-downdraft is definitely not.
hopethishelps, abit.

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby Norton46 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:49 pm

dynodave wrote:It certainly is a 650 from all I have seen. Yours is about 500 units after the one I'm working on which is a manxman. engine code 18 with the rear code of 65, Yours is obviously newer and the rear code is 65 C, My engine # is around 100,000 and the rear code by then is 650C. The crank is 650 and the head is the 88SS/650SS head. If this VIN is originally for a manxman or 650SS or regular 650?, is above my paygrade...Is there no bike with it?


Dave
Do you mean 500 earlier than the one you are working on, as 950XX comes before 100,000
I see from a separate 650 post that the 65C is for 65 custom. I have not yet run this number by the NOC for a records check. I guess I will need to do so.
The head is a down draft head.
Image

No bike with this engine/gearbox, it also came with the contents of the primary, stator, rotor and clutch. It is missing the cylinders and primary cases.
So walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but we can't be sure its a Manxman serial number!
So if anyone knows of a set of cylinders, please let me know.
Unsure of what to do with this at this time, I have a featherbead frame and wheels, brakes, forks, that I was thinking about a special.

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby ashman » Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:26 pm

It looks like a Manxman and very much the same stampings on my Manxman, but my motor numbers are about 60 numbers above yours 9507* 18 but at the back it has 65C 301, but this engine I have is not the orginal motor for my blue Manxman frame as this was a exrace bike, my frame number is 18 9500* and the 650 motor is out by 79 numbers, I can't say anything about the head as the head was missing off this bike when I brought it but has the blue primary cases, blue frame etc, but because it was a exrace bike by a well known racer most of the orginal parts were changed so hench I am building it as a cafe racer.

You will have troubles chasing up cylinders for it as when I was looking for a head for my project I was looking world wide for over 2 years till I was put on to a bloke here in Australia who had 2 heads, maybe he has some cylinders he owns a workshop for Nortons and old British bikes, I have his phone number here in Aussie land, his name is Murry, I had his email address but its lost on my old computer, he was a very good person to deal with.

Hope this helps

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby dynodave » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:27 pm

Yes my friend/customer is the one I am working on and has 945xx is the 65 batch designation and is definitely a blue manxman.
MY engine 1000xx has batch 650C and I don't know if the bottom end was originally 650ss or 650 deluxe. It is the engine only and came as a pile of parts with a big fin non downdraft head.
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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:21 am

dynodave wrote:It certainly is a 650 from all I have seen. Yours is about 500 units after the one I'm working on which is a manxman. engine code 18 with the rear code of 65, Yours is obviously newer and the rear code is 65 C, My engine # is around 100,000 and the rear code by then is 650C. The crank is 650 and the head is the 88SS/650SS head. If this VIN is originally for a manxman or 650SS or regular 650?, is above my paygrade...Is there no bike with it?
X1 on the cam was supposed to be an indication of hardening.




Hello Yes Is all there And is 50 machines before my one which was built December first 1960 so your must of been built at the end of November they built around 180 machines a week back the and my one has the 65C 288 and 18-95069 and the same stamp marks inside the crankcases the camshaft is of the high-grade steel X1 and high lift sport cam was fit well before the 650ss came into being is really the same bike but without the nice styling parts the Manxman Had fitted they did this to make the motorcycle cheap to build and standardize the parts lowering the cost to make more profit for the share holders and AMC They seem not to care so much about RD for the Future Machines That was bad management on AMC part They seem to do the same with AJS and Matchless all was well to them when motorcycle were selling , but the small car industry and cheaper Japanese motorcycles put pay to AMC /Norton By late 1966

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:27 am

Hello the First Manxman 650cc twin was built on November 7th 1960 along with 29 of its class mates I do Have the copy Factory Records for NORTON MANXMAN (650cc ) TWINS given to me via the Norton owners club Dave Catton heavy twins data manager

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:37 am

First Production 650cc twins were built from November 7th 1960 First of the line was Number 18-93601 shop number - 7 has it was pulled from the line and put back later in the day hence Shop Number 7 were has second Manxman built was number 18-93602 shop number 1 but the shop number do not run in numerical order has machines were pulled from the line before getting their shop number , has recorded by the data manager NOC.

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby worntorn » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:24 am

annajeannette wrote: my one has the 65C 288 and 18-95069 and the same stamp marks inside the crankcases the camshaft is of the high-grade steel X1 and high lift sport cam was fit well before the 650ss came into being is really the same bike but without the nice styling parts the Manxman Had fitted they did this to make the motorcycle cheap to build and standardize the parts lowering the cost to make more profit for the share holders and AMC They seem not to care so much about RD for the Future Machines That was bad management on AMC part They seem to do the same with AJS and Matchless all was well to them when motorcycle were selling , but the small car industry and cheaper Japanese motorcycles put pay to AMC /Norton By late 1966


I'm sure that Norton moved the styling away from the Manxman in order to sell some bikes.
With the 650ss they garnered "Machine of the Year" status in 1962 so they must have done something right. I don't think a bike with red seat, bright blue frame and cowhorn bars would have sold well in the UK or Europe.
Here is how one recent reviwer described the SS-

The 650SS had a black frame, silver painted tank and (optional) chrome fenders. Though simple in concept, the overall effect was stunning. The black, silver, polished alloy and chrome finish created “the look” for sports motorcycles for a decade — until the metalflake seventies"

Glen

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby dynodave » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:12 pm

I'd agree that the Manxman is a bit of a joke. While interesting to study all the versions that norton made, converting it to a 650SS would be my choice. In the drive train, I have not found any "worthwhile" difference that improved it. I highly prefer the 19" rear wheel of other models. This curious model faux-pas was to be repeated again, called the HiRider LOL.

notice the 650 flywheel/crankshaft pix how it is the same as ATLAS per anna :roll: (NOT)
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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:38 pm

Rohan wrote:Impressions from a quick glance at your pics.
Engine number is mid 1961 - does that still make it within Manxman production ?
You wouldn't/couldn't expect the left and right crankcase halves to have the SAME mold number !
X1 was said to be something to do with the hardening process used on some batches of cams.
And is approx right era to be Manxman.
There is nothing stamped on Norton cams that identifies them, you have to measure lobe heights etc.
Your pic doesn't quite show if the inlet ports are downdraft or not, really. Need a side on view.
Downdraft head could/should/would be Manxman, non-downdraft is definitely not.
hopethishelps, abit.





This Engine Number 95019 -18 is from the end of November 1960 you will find a date stamp on the headstock top engine plate steady bracket THE NORTON MANXMAN TWIN was the First Norton twin to have the down draft head Along with X1 high lift camshaft flat cam followers and fat type push rods and 1.75 large end journals So the Norton Manxman had all the Sports cams and inlet rocker cover breather system and had full bore exhaust pipes and the right-hand one tucked into miss the rev counter drive cable and first production machine to have all this has standard folding kickstart and chrome mudguards and tachometer fitted has standard and had 3 more BHP than the 650ss and the Norton Manxman was winning races in 1961 first race April 1961 pebble beach Norton 650 win SUNSET Motors used a Manxman motor and gearbox for their first drag racer which blew off a vincent black shadow so the Manxman was a racing machine well before the 650SS THE Norton Manxman is one of the finest Norton twins ever built
Last edited by annajeannette on Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:51 pm

worntorn wrote:
annajeannette wrote: my one has the 65C 288 and 18-95069 and the same stamp marks inside the crankcases the camshaft is of the high-grade steel X1 and high lift sport cam was fit well before the 650ss came into being is really the same bike but without the nice styling parts the Manxman Had fitted they did this to make the motorcycle cheap to build and standardize the parts lowering the cost to make more profit for the share holders and AMC They seem not to care so much about RD for the Future Machines That was bad management on AMC part They seem to do the same with AJS and Matchless all was well to them when motorcycle were selling , but the small car industry and cheaper Japanese motorcycles put pay to AMC /Norton By late 1966


I'm sure that Norton moved the styling away from the Manxman in order to sell some bikes.
With the 650ss they garnered "Machine of the Year" status in 1962 so they must have done something right. I don't think a bike with red seat, bright blue frame and high bars would have sold well in the UK or Europe.
Here is how one recent reviewer described the SS-

The 650SS had a black frame, silver painted tank and (optional) chrome fenders. Though simple in concept, the overall effect was stunning. The black, silver, polished alloy and chrome finish created “the look” for sports motorcycles for a decade — until the metal flake seventies"

Glen


Well that is your opinion but the real facts speak for them selfs The Norton Manxman sold well in the USA some 560 units sold before the end of July 1961 I do have the Factory records on all 650s The black and silver and less parts was to save the cost of building a motorcycle for the UK market the British got less not more !

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:25 pm

Norton46 wrote:
dynodave wrote:It certainly is a 650 from all I have seen. Yours is about 500 units after the one I'm working on which is a manxman. engine code 18 with the rear code of 65, Yours is obviously newer and the rear code is 65 C, My engine # is around 100,000 and the rear code by then is 650C. The crank is 650 and the head is the 88SS/650SS head. If this VIN is originally for a manxman or 650SS or regular 650?, is above my paygrade...Is there no bike with it?


Dave
Do you mean 500 earlier than the one you are working on, as 950XX comes before 100,000
I see from a separate 650 post that the 65C is for 65 custom. I have not yet run this number by the NOC for a records check. I guess I will need to do so.
The head is a down draft head.
Image

No bike with this engine/gearbox, it also came with the contents of the primary, stator, rotor and clutch. It is missing the cylinders and primary cases.
So walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but we can't be sure its a Manxman serial number!
So if anyone knows of a set of cylinders, please let me know.
Unsure of what to do with this at this time, I have a featherbead frame and wheels, brakes, forks, that I was thinking about a special.


HELLO the 65C is for Custom parts fitted, the other machines were stamp 65 and most 65C's were pulled off the line to fit said custom parts and then shop numbered so shop numbers do not run in any chronological order,

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Re: Norton 650??

Postby annajeannette » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:49 pm

dynodave wrote:I'd agree that the Manxman is a bit of a joke. While interesting to study all the versions that norton made, converting it to a 650SS would be my choice. In the drive train, I have not found any "worthwhile" difference that improved it. I highly prefer the 19" rear wheel of other models. This curious model faux-pas was to be repeated again, called the HiRider LOL.

notice the 650 flywheel/crankshaft pix how it is the same as ATLAS per anna :roll: (NOT)


Well of course the 650 crankshaft is the same has the Atlas the 650 came first! and if anything is a joke is you mate Has you do not understand the Berliner motors Marketing strategy the Manxman was named by Joe Berliner and Not anyone At Norton Has Joe Berliner and his brother had sole marketing rights to Norton Motorcycle products has signed an agreement in 1958 with Burt Hopwood and the AMC board which was sign in the Ritz hotel of that year the paint scheme was to launch the New Twin in the colours of the Two countries the USA and the UK Red white and blue so the new motorcycle was painted in blue with a red seat and the chrome lots of it, So now its 56 years later in history and you nor me can change anything that went before, so suck up and like or Not has the case may be you may of been brought on cafe racer crap, and not the refinements of USA long distance riding laid back for comfort so when you get off your bike you can do it all again without any aches and pains has you would be in with riding a cafe racer I have been there and have the T-shirt well before you, I been riding motorcycles for well over 45 years

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