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Mk111 Project

Member's Norton Restoration Projects

Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:48 pm

The wife and I talked about this and the agreement is that I should not be kick-starting Nortons again. This is common sense and not too hard a decision to make when you consider a third breaking event as a grim possibility. This leaves me with new decisions to make at age 57. This does not mean abandoning the Marque I love. I have a perfectly nice Show Norton that kicked back when the Starter system failed to engage and I jumped over to the Kicker. I bought the bike to avoid kicking and now I must guarantee it works well from here on in. Less late and early season driving will be a part of this. The mechanical challenge will be to ascertain why this e-start dislikes cold so much. I'm at home for the next 4 days after a week of head scratchings in Hospital , returning there Tues. for the big Titanium Plate installation ,recovery from that , then a long stretch of physio this winter. My little Mechanical theory :idea: is that cold shrinks the forward sprocket enough that the sprag cannot engage. The sprag has rollers in a cage. The rollers are flung outwards by centrifugal forces and need to be fully extended before engagement occurs. The cold temperature shrunken sprocket and sprag engagement recess face of this sprocket are now preventing full extension of the rollers. As the day warms up, clearances are opened up enough for intermittent or partial engagements. As the day progresses and air temps rise more full engagement occurs and the engine can start. Once the engine warms up by combustion heat the starter system works flawlessly. Feedback on these thoughts please. From the guy on Hydromorphone. :)
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby L.A.B. » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:44 am

Torontonian wrote:Ign. is Tri Spark without the test light later edition feature..........

.........but if early models kicked back let me know I know a few early ones had issues ).


My Mk.III has an early Tri-Spark and I've never experienced even the slightest of kickbacks with it, however, on a number of previous occasions you have advised members "not to bother using a strobe" but to set EI by retarding the pickup plate "until there are no kickbacks" but, as the Tri-Spark Classic Twin has a built-in anti-kickback feature, if that method is used, it could possibly allow the ignition to be set several degrees too far advanced without showing any apparent sign of it (until now)? So, how did you set the ignition timing?


Torontonian wrote:My little Mechanical theory :idea: is that cold shrinks the forward sprocket enough that the sprag cannot engage. The sprag has rollers in a cage. The rollers are flung outwards by centrifugal forces and need to be fully extended before engagement occurs. The cold temperature shrunken sprocket and sprag engagement recess face of this sprocket are now preventing full extension of the rollers. As the day warms up, clearances are opened up enough for intermittent or partial engagements. As the day progresses and air temps rise more full engagement occurs and the engine can start. Once the engine warms up by combustion heat the starter system works flawlessly. Feedback on these thoughts please.


But, aren't the sprag parts likely to expand and contract together, so negating any change in ambient temperature?
From past discussions, it would seem far more likely sprags slip because of too much clearance, rather than too little, and the fact that it slips more when cold is likely to be the result of increased drag from a cold engine and thickened oil?
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby jaydee75 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:14 am

I know how much harder mine is to kick start when cold, so out of empathy I always kick-assist the starter when dead cold. I think the cold stiffness is primarily due to the thicker oil at cold temps. After the engine has run a little, I use the electric starter by itself and have had no trouble at all.... Knock wood.

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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:51 pm

As for timing this Tri-Spark Ign. ,it is as I purchased the bike this past late summer. Have never touched the unit ever. Has started well ,idles very well from the day purchased , no kickback history.. Took off the cap just to have a look-see ,anodized red ,looks spotless. The RH 10 head will be changed for a reconditioned better RH 4 head , wrapped up and awaiting. This will require the timing changed and reset on the Tri-Spark unit , which I have no previous experience with. As for sprag to sprocket engagement face clearance , I can easily put a different lighter kind of oil into the primary , this would be an inexpensive easy way to test this new theory. If it engages at the low temps. we are taking about , then we know the oil viscosity is the factor. Stock 20 W 50 Castrol is in there now to the overflow plug level. Any suggestions for oil type for this springtime experiment ? Pain settling down today for first time. :) Using less meds . Loaned a good wheelchair ,bath board and crutches by good friends. Gift basket full of chocolates and fruits. :)
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby fiatfan » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:27 pm

Feel for you man, but at least it´s not summer as it was when I broke my right leg in the late 70:s, also Norton related :wink: . Remember sitting in a wheelchair outside the hospital and looking at bikes passing by on the roads outside, no fun :( . Hope you get well till the season starts!
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Mark » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:27 am

Just to clarify the event in my mind.......... is this how you were attempting to start your bike?:
Image
I know that I could never build up enough momentum to start my bike like that.

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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:24 pm

Thank Mark ,Tommy ,others. I had gotten the Reverse starting down quite well and not the method as pictured at all. The bike is on the sidestand. The body is twisted round so that the left foot toes point backwards resting on the kicker.. The right hip is close to the gastank. The right arm and hand on the twistgrip to maintain stability and throttle control. The left hand can be placed on the forward portion of the seat . For the time I was waiting out the end of the season previous injury I was asking other people to start the bike for me. Entertaining and effective , some had never tried before and burst out in glee at success ! It works , try it. (Break a leg ?).
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Mark » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:43 pm

I can't say that I have ever seen anyone try to start a motorcycle like that, but..... whatever works for you.

I've been unlucky enough to have had pins in my ankle too so I definitely feel for you and your situation.
fortunately you have a few months to heal up before the riding season begins.

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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:58 pm

Yes this will heal and it is fortunate to be in winter now. Will be our first one in 22 years for us , very grateful for a mild one so far. The last 2 broke records for sustained low temps. Splits into the sidewalls on my 72 from sustained under-20 C. temps ! As for my primary oil change experiment I am thinking of trying a 10 W 30 in there instead if the hydraulic chain tensioners still function with it. Pain much less today , I can get 3 hrs. out of 2 Mg. , the idea is to wean me off or closest to that before the operation . :wink:
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby worntorn » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:20 pm

Jim Comstock pointed out that ATF is ideal for sprag lube. I have used type F ATF in my mk3 primary for several years now, no problems, in fact it improved clutch operation.
Les mentioned that ATF did not work well with his mk3 hydraulic chain tensioner, but it keeps mine functioning OK.

Maybe worth a try. Type F offers more clutch grip than other types of ATF. It might also give good grip at the sprag.

Sorry to hear about your injury.

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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:38 pm

Glen I will try A.T.F. fluid as part of the engagement temps. comparisons experiment. When I bought the bike it came with a box of extras , one being a ziplock with 6 tensioners showing wear but not yet completely worn out. I've drained the oil and it was black from tensioner slipper block material. One would think if the piston-hydraulic end was not taking the oil well the result could be slopping chain noises.
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Rusty bucket » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:14 pm

Hang in there! I hate to hear of Motofolk busted up. I had really enjoyed your posts here and following your progress with the bike. I've got a MK3 as well, seemingly the red headed step child from Norton. I've not had any issue with my starter system yet. The sprag was replaced and new prestolight starter added, other than that it's all original w/ 5 or 6000 miles. I'm scared of what else I'm in for with it down the road and fearful buying a MK3 bike may cost me more in the long run.

Get to healing up, try not to buy too many parts online as its oh so damn easy!

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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:58 am

Thankyou for the Spending control advice. We are all well aware of Norton parts need and wish orders escalating to wow status if left unchecked. On that note I immediately asked a friend here in Toronto if I could get in on his next batch of hand cut and welded and assembled motor stands in Powdercoated Red. :roll: :D . Just returned from Western where they did x-rays and
a look-see with the doctor who showed a shattered fibia and Tibia lower but the ankle joint looks good as well as the foot. One doctor thinks it was a sideways strike consistent with the extendable fold away foot portion swinging back wildly hitting the 2 bones . His Theory. The Friday morning surgery will fit 3 plates with cast and 6 weeks in it , elevated whenever possible. :)
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Craig » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:13 pm

Back in the day when I worked for a living .... I suffered a leg break ,both bones just above ankle and one bone just below knee .... surgery with bolts installed and you know the drill for six weeks ... then surgery to remove bolts ... then physio ... break was March 15th ... return to heavy construction job June 1st .... so hang in there won't be long and you will be jogging again ... I don't believe temps are your problem .... physics does not support your theory , sorry
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Re: Mk111 Project

Postby Torontonian » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:45 pm

Back to my too-far-from my fingers reach MK 111 AP Racing fitted master cylinder issue . Contacted R.G.M. who feel the 050429 lever was likely as supplied with the bolt-on kit. It certainly looks the same as the advertised photo. Does any other MK 111 owner have a solution to this ? Is there another lever out there that will fit it , in polished aluminum with a stock look ? I'll get help posting a photo soon but remember I am in a wheelchair. I don't want to have the lever cut ,re-positioned closer and re-welded to achieve this.
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