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Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Norton Models (not Commando or P11)

Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby BillT » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:39 pm

That's not right.

the clutch back plate (1), race plate(4) and body, or hub(7) are bolted together by the clutch spring studs and nuts (5&6)


Image

the bonded friction surface of the back plate mates against the back the the clutch basket (13).

Basically, numbers 1 through 12 are assembled, fitted through the back of 13, then the clutch plates fitted and the whole assembly held together by the clutch spring assemblies and pressure plate (14 through 22)

Image is too big, go here:
http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-cha ... 959-on-bmp
to see it properly
'73 Norton 850 Commando - 3030xx
'69 Norton Ranger 750 - P11/1289xx
'67 Matchless G15CS - G15CS/1235xx
'61 Matchless G80CS - 61/G80CS/41xx
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:29 pm

Hi Bill, sorry if I wasn't clear. We're just trying to articulate the initial assembly of the studs/nuts 5/6 to the backplate 1, race plate 4, and clutch center 7.

The basket, pressure plate, plain steel plates, friction plates, and spring cups/springs/nuts aren't part of the confusion.

Do you think we're describing that initial assembly correctly? Where does the shoulder of the stud come to rest?

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby BillT » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:34 pm

AgentX wrote:Hi Bill, sorry if I wasn't clear. We're just trying to articulate the initial assembly of the studs/nuts 5/6 to the backplate 1, race plate 4, and clutch center 7.

The basket, pressure plate, plain steel plates, friction plates, and spring cups/springs/nuts aren't part of the confusion.

Do you think we're describing that initial assembly correctly? Where does the shoulder of the stud come to rest?


It's been over a year since I had one of mine apart, but as I remember, the shoulder of the studs should rest on the clutch center, binding parts 7, 4 and 1 together as a unit. The one picture you posted shows only the race and backing plate assembled, which is why I think your studs stick out so far. I went on to state clutch in terms of the inner and outer assemblies, because another of your pictures seemed to have the backing plate inside the clutch basket instead of behind it.

I've got a pretty good blow-apart diagram of a Dominator clutch from my P11 owner's manual, but the one I linked from the NOC website is the best one I could find to post. The problem with the NOC diagram is it does not really show how all those parts go together in the proper order, necessitating my further explanation for clarity.

It should all be clear as mud, now!
'73 Norton 850 Commando - 3030xx
'69 Norton Ranger 750 - P11/1289xx
'67 Matchless G15CS - G15CS/1235xx
'61 Matchless G80CS - 61/G80CS/41xx
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:04 am

Right, that pic was just to show why didn't think the studs should be staked straight to the back plate. I think we are all on the same boat for reassembly...I neglected to get the clutch center in the proper place when I first threw it together, and the stud shoulders were not in the correct place.

Can't wait to get back to the bike and sort it out, with an attempt at starting to follow.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby annajeannette » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:33 am

AgentX wrote:I’m told this is a home-made Zener diode…bike also has no battery, just an electrolytic capacitor. Used one on the Enfield for a while and it worked OK, but I preferred the cap as the backup for a proper battery. We’ll see what happens with that.


I checked and replaced all fluids and tried to fire it up, but I had no spark. So off came the rather obstinate timing cover, and I got the magneto detached and sent for service plus an EasyCap installation. Realized the petcocks were gummed up, so I figured the carbs might need a look too. Found them clean as a whistle, but the slide/barrel fit was terrible, so I sent them for re-sleeving and got new gaskets and needles/jets, since the needle jet orifices looked a little out of shape too.

Went to put the mag back on, so I had to get the primary cover off in preparation to time it. (Fun time with the left footrest…ugh…)



To get this bike running first you need to check out that the magneto works and the timing is set right and the carburetors are clean and all fuel lines and tank are clean the timing is set by the drive side or left-hand cylinder at 32 degrees before top dead center and the spark plug lead for the left-hand cylinder is the one nearest to the battery box the one nearest to the cylinder is the right side one do not get these mixed up you need 15 thou on the points they should be looking upward and the heel of the cam should on the bottom you need to then get the point just opening at 32 degrees BTDC and you be better of with a ATC sprocket a Automatic timing control sprocket and the timing cover you have on this bike is from a early 650 of 1961 vintage now do have fun

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:59 am

So...good news!

Last week I properly assembled the clutch basket. One of the reasons the proper order had not been obvious to me was the fact that the studs were a very hard fit by hand through the race plate. I was being a little too ginger on that...once they seated properly everything lined up and it went back together no problem. Once again, thanks for the assistance.


That said--question before I put this back together. Regarding the clutch pushrod: when I removed it, I did not retreive a ball bearing (040031, I believe, Plate D #87 in my book). In the parts book diagram, this ball seems to be captive within the assembled gearbox. Am I correct, or does the ball just reside in the pushrod tunnel and roll free? (My Enfield is that way...) Want to make sure I am not missing something which may have gotten away from me on disassembly. If I do need one, is an ordinary 1/4" steel ball OK or is it a special part?

In more good news, I was able to transport the bike with me in the U-Haul to my new home for the next three years. It is residing happily in a friend's garage which is set up to work on bikes.

Might get some work on it done tomorrow, even, if the pushrod bearing situation isn't an obstacle. If things go well we could even have an attempt to fire it up.
Last edited by AgentX on Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:06 am

annajeannette wrote:To get this bike running first you need to check out that the magneto works and the timing is set right and the carburetors are clean and all fuel lines and tank are clean the timing is set by the drive side or left-hand cylinder at 32 degrees before top dead center and the spark plug lead for the left-hand cylinder is the one nearest to the battery box the one nearest to the cylinder is the right side one do not get these mixed up you need 15 thou on the points they should be looking upward and the heel of the cam should on the bottom you need to then get the point just opening at 32 degrees BTDC and you be better of with a ATC sprocket a Automatic timing control sprocket and the timing cover you have on this bike is from a early 650 of 1961 vintage now do have fun


Thanks! At this point, the mag sparks, I have timed it best I can to my meager ability, carbs are spotless with fresh gaskets, needles, and jets, tank's had some inner surface rust knocked off with CLR and a few loose nuts, fuel taps have been cleaned, and the lines are clear.

Much appreciate the info on the mag's HT lead orientation...I was unable to find a reference for that.

Regarding the timing cover, the original owner did say it had been replaced and he wasn't sure if the tach drive cable was correctly oriented with this one, as it runs hard against the exhaust pipe. Anything else I should be aware of re: this older timing cover?

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby Triton Thrasher » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:48 am

12 thou is correct magneto points gap.
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:50 am

Triton Thrasher wrote:12 thou is correct magneto points gap.


That's what I'd used based on my manual.

With a mag, can you alter timing slightly by changing the gap, as you can with a coil and points setup? I haven't seen any reference saying you can...would be nice to be able to make a timing adjustment without having to take off both the timing and primary covers, though!

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby Triton Thrasher » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:05 am

AgentX wrote:
Triton Thrasher wrote:12 thou is correct magneto points gap.


That's what I'd used based on my manual.

With a mag, can you alter timing slightly by changing the gap, as you can with a coil and points setup? I haven't seen any reference saying you can...would be nice to be able to make a timing adjustment without having to take off both the timing and primary covers, though!


Yes, but it can weaken the spark. People do it experimentally.
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:36 am

Thanks--hopefully I won't need to, but it's nice to know it's attemptable if necessary.

Do you also happen to know anything about the clutch pushrod ball bearing I mentioned in the post above? Appreciate your expertise.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:46 am

AgentX wrote:Thanks--hopefully I won't need to, but it's nice to know it's attemptable if necessary.

Do you also happen to know anything about the clutch pushrod ball bearing I mentioned in the post above? Appreciate your expertise.


It is captive in the gearbox clutch operating assembly.

Slick
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The Second Law (of thermodynamics) rules.
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:54 am

AgentX wrote:
Triton Thrasher wrote:12 thou is correct magneto points gap.


That's what I'd used based on my manual.

With a mag, can you alter timing slightly by changing the gap, as you can with a coil and points setup? I haven't seen any reference saying you can...would be nice to be able to make a timing adjustment without having to take off both the timing and primary covers, though!


Some mags had a cam ring housing that had an eccentric screw which could be turned to advance or retard the cam ring by 4-5 degrees each way. This screw, if you have it, will be located at the 6 o'clock position on the cam ring housing ... not an easy place to get to it.

It is FAR more important the point gap be the same on both ramps, than spot on 12 thou, but up to 15 thou is considered within spec.

The timing will advance 2 degrees for each 0.001 increase in point gap, and vice versa. Likewise, the cylinders will fire 2 degrees differently for each 0.001 difference in point gap on the ramps.
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Last edited by texasSlick on Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby Triton Thrasher » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:56 am

I don't have a Norton/AMC clutch, but if the adjuster in the centre of the pressure plate has a blind hole facing the pushrod, it is normal for there to be a ball in the hole, for the end of the pushrod to bear against. Most Brit clutches have something like that.

Many owners have sawn the pushrod in half and put a ball between the two halves, within the mainshaft. I haven't heard of a factory doing that.

Other than that little lot, I don't know!
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:01 am

Triton Thrasher wrote:I don't have a Norton/AMC clutch, but if the adjuster in the centre of the pressure plate has a blind hole facing the pushrod, it is normal for there to be a ball in the hole, for the end of the pushrod to bear against. Most Brit clutches have something like that.

Many owners have sawn the pushrod in half and put a ball between the two halves, within the mainshaft. I haven't heard of a factory doing that.

Other than that little lot, I don't know!


The adjuster in the center of the pressure plate on my Atlas (same as G15 I believe, but perhaps there are differences) has a plain flat hardened surface.

Only ball is on the other end, and is part of the cam operator.

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