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Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Norton Models (not Commando or P11)

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Postby AgentX » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:17 pm

Thanks! I tried shimming and that was semi-successful...too tight without and too loose with the shim. But then my Norvil packet arrived, and the new seal works perfectly all by itself, getting a 10 thou gauge in there just fine between the covers. Little cleaning and anti-seize on the dowels seemed to make the fit a bit smoother. But now I realize...is the 10 thou standoff supposed to be metal-to-metal, or is that supposed to be measured with the gasket in play? Seems like it should include the gasket to me, but the manuals are silent on that. If so, the shim should put everything back to the right standoff.


'Course, in the meantime, I put the carbs back on, freshly-sleeved from Andy Hardan at amalsleeve.com. Unfortunately, the slides are sticking in the barrels a little, despite being only finger-tight to the head. Don't know if it's my cable routing, or weak springs, or what, but I have to manually shove the throttle closed to get them to return. Messaged Andy to see if this was a normal break-in condition but he says it's not...makes me wonder about my cable routing and my springs, but I can't see any other way to do this, and the springs worked fine before sleeving. I took great care to test the slides while the bodies were still loose on the mounting studs. Ugh. Andy said he'd call me in an hour or so; hopefully he can help me out. Edit: He recommended fully mounting carbs w/o slides, loosening jet block and giving it a tap from underneath, then installing slides and tightening down the jet block. Will try that tomorrow.


And...the greatest humiliation...found this in the driveway and have NO idea what it is, where it came from, or if it's even associated with the motorcycle. That said, it's sitting on the side near the primary which has been uncovered for some time and I can't think of anyplace else it would have originated. Anyone recognize it?!

Edit: Wait, that's a clutch roller. Looks like the cage broke. Trying to order another from Clubman racing in Connecticut, as I'm also in New England at the moment and it's in their stock list.

Image

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:37 pm

Well, the cage roller tells me you got the clutch to come off. Bummer about the cage breaking.

Ten thou is the spec that the timing cover should stand proud with the seal and any shim in place. Of course, the timing cover must be free to move on the dowels.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby L.E.N. » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:55 pm

You may want to do a google search for sticking carb slides. Debby had a good post about what may be going on and how to fix it. The thread is a few years old by now but it worked great for me.
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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:28 pm

texasSlick wrote:Well, the cage roller tells me you got the clutch to come off. Bummer about the cage breaking.

Ten thou is the spec that the timing cover should stand proud with the seal and any shim in place. Of course, the timing cover must be free to move on the dowels.

Slick


Thanks, slick -- but is the gap to be measured with the timing side gasket in place, or just the cover alone?

And alas, I did not get the clutch off...the broken section dropped out from underneath!

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:25 pm

AgentX wrote:
Thanks, slick -- but is the gap to be measured with the timing side gasket in place, or just the cover alone?

And alas, I did not get the clutch off...the broken section dropped out from underneath!


The only way it makes sense to me is with the timing cover gasket in place. Most gaskets can run from 10 to 20 thou, and if you were to omit the gasket, then you potentially could have the conical seal have a gap.

Regarding the clutch: I am wondering if the PO locktited the spyder onto the shaft! Pick out the rubbers, then apply heat to the spyder. The roller cage was likely broken before you attempted to remove the clutch ... I once had a cage do that to me. I also had three spyders break, so be sure to give yours a good look over.

When you replace the rubbers, you should review this thread:

clutch-shock-cush-rubbers-how-t22977.html?hilit=clutch%20rubbers#p301507


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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:38 pm

Thanks; that's what I thought but nothing mentioned a gasket in the manual.

I am waiting on the puller tool for the clutch, which hopefully will make it easy the get the hub out.

However I stand a good chance of getting the engine back to running soon, even if the clutch takes a little longer. Once I hear it run I will be much more relaxed about the rest of it...I don't even have a US motorcycle license right now, and the bike wont be registered for at least a few months.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:29 am

Carb problem resolved! There was none.

Twistgrip, naturally. Guess the newly-sleeved carbs offered just enough increased resistance than when they were rattling in the barrels that the sticky twistgrip finally couldn't overcome them. Quick clean and fresh grease and a little duct tape on the bar to shim it out and all's well there.

Timing cover seems conquered as well. Wish I could kick it over to see if it runs, but lacking the clutch, I don't think I have sufficient hand strength to turn the engine over by hand at the sprocket!

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:06 am

Any tips on extracting the spider from the clutch center? I have the extractor fully screwed into the internal spider threads, giving a good contact through the threads and around the rim, but hammering on the extractor with the clutch hub supported on some scrap wood isn't doing the job. Don't have ready access to a press of any kind or even a vise... I really don't want to mess up the spider, either, because I'm tired of order/waiting for parts and am running short on time.

I know getting it back together with the rubbers is going to be a bear, too, lacking a scrap main shaft to hold it in place, but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Plan to lock the rear wheel and use the mainshaft to hold it in place while I crank on with a c-clamp, and see if the father-in-law can get the final rubber in there.

Edit: Still staring at it...do I have a shot at driving out a single cush rubber to release it? Or drilling it out? (Have replacement rubbers...)

Studying these links... clutch-shock-cush-rubbers-how-t22977.html and p11-gearbox-clutch-kickstart-sprocket-t21646.html

I think I will just try and drill out one of the big rubbers to release the spider and then get to tackling putting it back together. I'll start soaking the new rubbers in ATF now too.


Edit II:. Drilled two big rubbers out carefully. A narrow spade bit for wood took out a lot of material. Then needlenose pliers removed the rest. Then the spider drove out with a few whacks from the hammer on the extractor tool, driving down with the clutch center supported on 2x4 stubs. (For future hacks' reference...)



Photos, intended to help other newbies facing this issue and to let those with knowledge correct any deficiencies with the method:

Post-success shot of my setup for driving the spider out of the hub, following the drill-out and removal of two large rubbers. That's the extractor tool in the center, screwed tight and flush with the inner rim of the spider.

Image

Mock-up of the spider, hub, and spanner position to insert the rubbers. I greased the surfaces against which the rubber would need to slide. Don't think that was really necessary except maybe for the final one or two when it gets tight.

Image

Post-success; had to stomp on the brake pedal really, really hard to keep things in place against the force of the ATF-soaked cush rubbers, but I was able to do it without an assistant. Might have helped to have a second set of hands, though...

Image

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:31 pm

Reassembling clutch; I tried to recycle the studs by dressing threads and smoothing out the staked points which needed drilling. They seem secure, but they project further from the nuts than they used to...are these strictly single-use?

Image

Obviously I could file this down, but I'm worried that I'm getting into false economy here and that something is very wrong...I am assuming there's some distortion or damage to the threads, and wondering if there's now proper fit between the clutch race plate and the caged rollers as a result. The cage can rotate if pushed but isn't running loosely.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:46 pm

I find no fault with what you have done. I have re-used the studs, but rather than staked them in, I used red Loctite.

Loctite or staking should not have caused any change in the amount of thread exposed.

Is the groove or channel in the race plate facing the roller cage, or did you install it exactly as shown in the exploded view? The race plate is drawn backwards in the diagrams. If it is installed backwards, it may affect the thread exposure, and will affect the operation of the roller cage.

Report back.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:52 am

This is how my race plate sits:

Image

I thought that was reversed from the diagram, and seemed to both make sense and match my memory of what it had looked like assembled...but please double-check me!

Also, please reassure me...there's nothing that holds the clutch center to these studs prior to full assembly of the clutch onto the bike, correct? The drillings in the clutch hub are quite a bit larger than the studs which pass through, and it's the center nut and cup/spring/nut/pressure plate which will keep it all tightly together, yes?



Bad news is I won't get the bike running before I depart for work. I frankly don't feel like mounting the tank and putting all the fluids in just to drain them out. I'll be back up at least once in early August and will try then. Just going to take it slowly and methodically.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:19 am

Race plate orientation looks proper.

However, if memory serves me correctly, the studs are first staked onto the back plate in which case the shoulders on the studs are not visible when viewed as in your picture. NOTE .... that is from memory, do not take as gospel.
I am 99% sure the studs are staked to the back plate FIRST, then the rest of the assembly can proceed in only one way, except for flipping the race plate over backwards.

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:28 am

Hm, I had assembled it that way because the flats on the studs key to the oblong holes in the race plate. I disassembled to try it again, but if I try to fasten the studs straight to the backplate, they protrude this much until the backplate comes to rest on the shoulders of the studs,

Image

and the race plate does not fit properly against the inboard side of the same shoulders. Am I missing something about what you're describing?

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby texasSlick » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:36 pm

@AgentX

Well that last pic is certainly not right. I am sorry if I led you astray with my previous post.

I am not where I can refer to my Norton Manual, and must work from memory. As I recall, those studs are dang near flush with the thin nuts when assembled on the backplate. So, it is back to the previous way, and your own judgement.

Where are you located?

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Re: Matchless G-15CS...Get it Running!

Postby AgentX » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:31 am

New England at our vacation place at the moment, on my way to Virginia for starting work. Bike will probably be staying up here until it's running, then will decide where it lives after that.

Edit: Offline, Texasslick suggested what I believe to be the proper order--studs placed through clutch center, then the raceplate, then the backplate. I was missing the clutch center portion of that, and it makes a lot of sense. Will try that out once I'm back with the bike in a few weeks...till then, I suppose this hyperactive thread gets a rest.


Oh, one more question, while there's nothing of substance to discuss...the previous owner once had on Dunstall finned rocker covers. He later removed them after dismissing them as an affectation. I think I might put them back on, because why not?

Once I get it running, next tasks will be suspension and brakes. Sad that I can't put a cartridge emulator in these forks, but I'm sure they are due at least for an oil change. Rear will get some basic Hagons. Brakes may go to Vintagebrake.com for re-lining.

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