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Frame and Engine ID

Frame and Engine ID

Postby NORTSTER1974 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:34 pm

Hi All,
I was looking for a little help in identifying a Triumph frame I have so that I can order the correct fork tubes, bushings, bearings, seals, etc. as the set on the bike are extended and pitted. I found the " Bike " in my neighbors basement where it had been sitting since 1978. $200...Just a roller. Nowhere near complete, pretty much a starting point for a hard tail, bar hopping, rat bike. He knew nothing about it, except that it belonged to his brother who passed 38 years ago. It has a title which matches the #'s on the motor. They don't cross match with any data found on the internet, as far as engines go. I was told it may have been a replacement set of cases from the factory. I'm not concerned about the motor, which has since been rebuilt from the cases up. As I understand the numbers on the frame say it was built in November 1969, so it would be a 1970 model bike. So do I order parts for a 1970 front end or a 1969 front end, or are they the same? Sorry I have no pics of the front end at this time, just the frame #'s. Pics of engine, oil tank, frame #'s, front wheel enclosed. The rear wheel is the spool type hub. 19" rims front and rear. Thank you in advance for any info on the frame and what year I should order parts for.

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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby Fast Eddie » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:49 am

Your paperwork in the picture says 1967... not 1969. How can your frame number be from '69 but registered as a '67?

Whatever the reason, you ought to know that these era of Triumph twins are regarded by most as the pinnacle, the absolute best of the lot. This is why they command such high prices. IMHO I would therefore think carefully before going down the 'hardtail rat bike' route...!

You would most probably be better off selling what you have to someone who wants it for what it is, and then buying a hardtail rat bike.
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby L.A.B. » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:08 am

NORTSTER1974 wrote:As I understand the numbers on the frame say it was built in November 1969, so it would be a 1970 model bike.


This is a typical case of misinterpreting the date codes (PC).

P = November
C = 1969, however, the 'year' letter (C) refers to 'production season' or 'model year', not calendar year.

So 'PC' is 1969 model year, manufactured November(P) 1968, as 1969 model year TR6 production commenced late 7/68 and ended in 7/69. Early '69 model year production had a dateless 'DU' prefix, the (BSA) date code system only being adopted by Triumph in October '68 (NC).



Fast Eddie wrote:Your paperwork in the picture says 1967... not 1969. How can your frame number be from '69 but registered as a '67?


It seems some US states used the engine number at that time (although D453262 doesn't appear to be a genuine '67 or '69 serial number).

Edit:
NORTSTER1974 wrote:So do I order parts for a 1970 front end or a 1969 front end, or are they the same?


Judging by what we've seen so far I think you need to identify which forks/front end you have.
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby grandpaul » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:10 am

67 engine in a 70 frame.

You need TWO parts books, one for the engine, one for the chassis, running gear & cycle parts.

Although that is a '67 front wheel, so who knows how much of a "bitsa" you actually have?
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby grandpaul » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:11 am

Are the engine front mounts welded to the frame, or does it have triangular bolt-on plates?

You may have a re-stamped frame as that serial number would indicate they should be removeable triangles.
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby L.A.B. » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:16 am

grandpaul wrote:67 engine in a 70 frame.

You need TWO parts books, one for the engine, one for the chassis, running gear & cycle parts.


The "replacement" crankcases aren't '67 type and the "PC 03368" frame isn't 1970 (as I already explained above) :roll: and there's no evidence that it's anything but what it appears to be, a 1969 model frame manufactured in November 1968, not November 1969 as NORTSTER had assumed.


grandpaul wrote:Are the engine front mounts welded to the frame, or does it have triangular bolt-on plates?

You may have a re-stamped frame as that serial number would indicate they should be removeable triangles.


"PC 03368" does not indicate it should have removable front plates. :?

As far as I am aware, that modification was introduced during early 1970 production, at TR6 JD26050 (8/69, 1970 TR6 production commencing during 7/69 from HD23795).
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby Fast Eddie » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:10 pm

So why does the paperwork say 1967 ?
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby L.A.B. » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:22 pm

Fast Eddie wrote:So why does the paperwork say 1967 ?


Why indeed, as "D453262" isn't anything like a '67 number. Neither is "PC 03368".
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby grandpaul » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:25 pm

Engine case stampings appeart bogus, Triumph never used those fonts...

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Is it just me, or are there "ghosts" of old numbers to the right at the top?
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby nortriubuell » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:59 pm

NORTSTER1974 wrote:Hi All,
I was looking for a little help in identifying a Triumph frame I have so that I can order the correct fork tubes, bushings, bearings, seals, etc. as the set on the bike are extended and pitted. I found the " Bike " in my neighbors basement where it had been sitting since 1978. $200...Just a roller. Nowhere near complete, pretty much a starting point for a hard tail, bar hopping, rat bike. He knew nothing about it, except that it belonged to his brother who passed 38 years ago. It has a title which matches the #'s on the motor. They don't cross match with any data found on the internet, as far as engines go. I was told it may have been a replacement set of cases from the factory. I'm not concerned about the motor, which has since been rebuilt from the cases up. As I understand the numbers on the frame say it was built in November 1969, so it would be a 1970 model bike. So do I order parts for a 1970 front end or a 1969 front end, or are they the same? Sorry I have no pics of the front end at this time, just the frame #'s. Pics of engine, oil tank, frame #'s, front wheel enclosed. The rear wheel is the spool type hub. 19" rims front and rear. Thank you in advance for any info on the frame and what year I should order parts for.


[url=http://s411.photobucket.com/user/soldjohnz/media/Triumph%20002_zpsyfvy5vma.jpg.html]

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I agree with what LAB writes, he is Most knowledgeable on these subjects, and he is right here again! I have a 1970 Triumph, and it has the triangular front engine mount plates. (the ONLY year that did) And, its frame number starts with "AD" ... D being 1970 model. As stated earlier, your frame number IS a 1969 ... and it appears to have original numbers.

However, your engine has OBVIOUSLY been re stamped, and those are really "goofball" numbers the "re stamp" person chose to use too. It does NOT follow Triumph number convention at all. How someone got this thru the DMV is beyond me, let alone getting the title for the "altered" engine number; instead of the frame. It is "supposed" to be the frame. Your bike is even more of a "bitsa" than mine. :shock: (link below) Price was good though :D

bitsa-triumph-completed-t25941.html

Who knows what manner of mix and match parts are in your engine. Build it how you want, its a "bitsa" :mrgreen:
70 Triumph 650 chopper
73 Norton 750 "bitsa"
74 Norton 850 project
76 Triumph w/69 650 motor
80 Kaw KZ1000
99 Buell Cyclone
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby NORTSTER1974 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:08 pm

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"Gentlemen" thanks for all the replies! Here are a few more pics of the frame and triple tree. All I really need to know is what year fork tubes and internals I should get for this front end? As far as I'm concerned it's not a bike of any value worth restoring as it is very incomplete. And also the crazy #'s on the motor, and the "67" title. Remember I pulled it from a basement where it was sitting for at least 40 years. So a Rat she will be. So what year tubes?...So I can get it done before the warm weather hits.
Thanks Again,
Johnny Z

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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby L.A.B. » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:51 am

NORTSTER1974 wrote:All I really need to know is what year fork tubes and internals I should get for this front end?


The forks appear to have been modified as they would have had external springs and gaiters throughout that period.

Are the forks 6 1/2 or 6 3/4 between centres?
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby NORTSTER1974 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:09 am

Hi LAB,
The forks are 6 3/4" between centers. And yes the tubes are 28 1/2" from axle to bottom of triple tree.

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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby L.A.B. » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:29 am

NORTSTER1974 wrote:The forks are 6 3/4" between centers.


The wider 6 3/4" trees (middle and top lug) are 69-on, so they are probably correct for the '69 frame.

Best thing to do in my opinion would be to strip the fork legs before ordering any new parts.

https://issuu.com/sealycycleservice/doc ... o7_99-0882
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Re: Frame and Engine ID

Postby NORTSTER1974 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:55 pm

Thanks for the info LAB, that's what I'll do.

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