Welcome to the Access Norton Forum. Login as a VIP member to remove the advertising banners.


Dominator dyno run

Modern 961 Norton Commando Motorcycles

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby iwilson » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:21 am

Fast Eddie wrote:
I know someone in the UK who would relish the task, make / adapt a custom ignition, make manifolds, set carbs up on rolling road, etc. Actually, he'd even make a custom EFI set up if desired.

Where are you?


Glad to see you're about to take the plunge. Looking forward to your build thread!
User avatar

iwilson
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:16 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby Fast Eddie » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:56 am

iwilson wrote:
Fast Eddie wrote:
I know someone in the UK who would relish the task, make / adapt a custom ignition, make manifolds, set carbs up on rolling road, etc. Actually, he'd even make a custom EFI set up if desired.

Where are you?


Glad to see you're about to take the plunge. Looking forward to your build thread!


Not quite Ian, I won't be plunging far at all, due largely to lack of a suitable machine upon which to plunge!

I merely know someone who's capable, equipped and willing to do this kinda stuff, for anyone who may be interested.

I have to remain content playing around with the 'old' Commando variant.
User avatar
Access Norton VIP Paying Member
Fast Eddie
VIP MEMBER
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:48 am
Location: Oxford, England

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby TonyA » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:54 am

Fast Eddie wrote:
iwilson wrote:
Fast Eddie wrote:
I know someone in the UK who would relish the task, make / adapt a custom ignition, make manifolds, set carbs up on rolling road, etc. Actually, he'd even make a custom EFI set up if desired.

Where are you?


Glad to see you're about to take the plunge. Looking forward to your build thread!


Not quite Ian, I won't be plunging far at all, due largely to lack of a suitable machine upon which to plunge!

I merely know someone who's capable, equipped and willing to do this kinda stuff, for anyone who may be interested.

I have to remain content playing around with the 'old' Commando variant.




I think if Norton don't step up to the plate , they are missing an opportunity here. What I would like to see Norton do is market a race kit for the Commando 961. A FACTORY DESIGNED AND APPROVED RACE KIT . Of course for off road use only !!! This kit would include a camshaft , higher compression pistons 11.1 to 1 up one point , and a proper 8000 rpm rev limit and other necessary changes in the ECU . Now , this will net another easy 5 to 10 HP or more if properly done. No need to change the Throttle bodies or air box yet. Lets not forget that the Norton Throttle Bodies are already 38MM . A New Designed Racing airbox could be introduced with a larger opening and larger filter. When Norton UK decided to DE-TUNE the 961 Commando , this was done early on during the Dreer prototype to the Norton UK production ready machine. Tests of the Dreer engine by Cycle World state 75 BHP . But , the FLAT FAT torque curve will give way to the scalded cat top end 5000 to 8000 RPM . The possibilities and opportunities are many !! And very delicious ! Of course there would be stipulations about NOT DURING WARRANTY , or VOIDS WARRANTY etc.. This in my view would be worth their time and effort and be profitable !

TonyA
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:14 am
Location: Milwaukee WI. USA

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby BritTwit » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:03 pm

Tony,

First we should create a new thread to discuss hot rodding the 961.
Now, to further pollute this thread…

The 38mm throttle bodies on the 961 just can not flow as much as the 39 FCR’s.
The butterfly valve in the TB throat creates turbulence and reduces flow to probably the level of a 36-37mm smoothbore carb.
Converting to carbs as I mentioned in a prior posting would be a huge task.
A race kit from the factory would be great, I agree.
However, I just don’t see the willingness on the part of the Factory to do any such thing.
So, if we are going to get this done, WE, owners, will have to grab the bull by the horns, and make it happen.

I can see a quick, relatively inexpensive upgrade:

1. Ditch the airbox. Aesthetically, this would not be very pleasing to look at but will pay dividends in performance.
Will have to create a catch bottle for the crankcase/valve cover breathers.
2. Foam sock air filters with internal velocity stacks on the throttle bodies.
3. Ditch cats and install free flowing exhaust.
4. I believe someone on the forum indicated a few weeks ago that Dynojet will introduce a PC5 for the 961 soon.
Install power commander, and spend next few weeks on the dyno developing a strong map.

These mods will free up the induction and exhaust ends nicely.
The power commander will provide the necessary mixture changes to take advantage of the free breathing.

These changes alone should provide 10+ HP, plus better throttle response due to free induction, and a custom PC5 map.
1975 850 MKIII Commando
2013 961 Commando Cafe Racer
2006 Triumph Bonneville T100
2003 Ducati 999
User avatar

BritTwit
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby worntorn » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:39 am

BritTwit wrote:
TonyA wrote: BUT , I stand by what I said before . This engine is capable of 90 HP with reliability. .......
Also, Matt Capri of Triumph Performance intended to develop and market performance products for the 961.
My hope was to build a new age Norton Hot Rod, but currently there are still no components on the market.
So far there is still nothing for the new Nortons other than exhaust systems.
A Power Commander with effective maps would be a nice for a start

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

2. Throttle bodies (TBs)– are also too small, and restrictive with the butterfly valve to provide adequate flow of air for producing good power.
Kenny Dreer’s original 961 design used flatslide 39mm FCR’s. These babies flow a lot more fuel/air than the current throttle bodies.
I wonder if the stock 961 TBs have enough meat on them to be bored out a few mm like the TBs on Hinckley Bonnevilles?
There is a company in the UK that does this.....


Having ridden a Triumph 790 that had the full TPUSA treatment, that is head sent to TPUSA for porting etc, hot cam,air box upgrade, twin 38 mm Kehein FCR's , high compression pistons, upgraded ignition, I would say be careful what you wish for.
In addition to the upgrades, that bike had undergone about a year of farting around with various dyno tuners to solve stalling problems and general running problems. In the end it managed to make 6 extra peak HP on the dyno on it's very best run ( but many runs against 1 stock run, so was it really 6 HP?)
The mid range and low end were totally gutted, virtually no power below 6 k then an decent little band between 6 and 8, that was it. My 1968 650 SS would run away from it using half throttle!
And this was supposed to be a proven performance kit , hundreds if not thousands of these done.


If you have a good runner now it might be best to just enjoy it as is.

Glen

worntorn
Posts: 3454
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:43 pm
Location: Langley, B.C.

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby BritTwit » Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:00 am

Glen,
Certainly you’re correct.
There are many stories about hot rodding efforts gone wrong, through overreaching for too much at once.
I built quite a few Kawasaki and Suzuki four cylinder race motors back in the day and experienced that first hand.
The most effective way to build-up a motor is from a proven, conservative approach.
That’s why my initial suggestion for the 961 is simply to free up the stock, strangled, suffocated induction and exhaust.
Given what I see and have experienced with my 961, these two areas offer the easiest, least expensive avenue for improvement.
And this requires no cam changes or head work of any kind, which usually complicate matters.
In that state, with a Power Commander available, it should be fairly easy to extract another 10 HP over the stock setup.
Careful dyno work will preserve the midrange and torque curve.
Also, my experience, albeit with carb builds, is that freeing up engine breathing = better overall throttle response. A nice benefit.

I also own a Hinckley Bonneville 865 T100, with TPUSA 813 cams, airbox mods, free flowing exhaust.
Pretty conservative improvements, but it pulls far better than stock.
The 813 split lope cams preserve the original midrange, but from 4500 rpm up they totally transform the bike.
A stock 865 Bonneville will struggle to reach the 7000 rpm redline, in any gear.
I can bounce the needle off the redline now, and often smoked a buddy who had a stock Thruxton 865.

Building power in these twins isn’t rocket science; it just requires that you begin with reasonable expectations.
1975 850 MKIII Commando
2013 961 Commando Cafe Racer
2006 Triumph Bonneville T100
2003 Ducati 999
User avatar

BritTwit
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby TonyA » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:27 am

Hello again , For me , This is more of a Norton Motorcycles UK " Wish List " . I would like to see them continue to develop and enhance the 961 line. Another possibility would be to enlist a specialist firm to help them develop an accessory line . This should include a performance improvement section and a touring improvement section . Say bags , wind protection , touring seat and heated grips . Also the before mentioned Race Kits.
All of these things developed specifically for the Commando 961 . Proven and fully tested by the factory. The gearing changes provided by the sprockets now available thanks to G81CanCycle , The Coote's and CNW are a great start. I would like to hear more about the Air Filter developed by John (G81CanCycle) . I thought he said that it would be a direct replacement . I know for fact that K&N are NOT interested in making a filter that fits the 961 air box. I offered to send them a new Norton filter and the answer was NO , they wouldn't be doing that. Time will tell if any of this happens.

TonyA
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:14 am
Location: Milwaukee WI. USA

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby Matt Spencer » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:35 am

Or Use NITRO . :wink:

Olde 60s Triumphs ran 80 / 20 Nitro Methanol no worries .
Aeroplane that got the piston engine speed record of the nazis used 10 % after melting a motor on 20 % .

With the methanol ( alcohol ) to cool it , its feasable on a air cooled motor . If yyou want to find its mechanical limitations . :P

uprated Fuel System , and keep it rich . Straight Methanol , on a track bike , if legal now , was std. practise pre war .
Grand Prix Auto fuel was ' blended ' . Not Petrol as we know ( Knew ! ) it .

SO , methanol , with a bit of ' ignition improver , would have you at 100 Horsepower . Maybe even Real Horses , straight off .
if you didnt cock it up .
The Japanese response to ' styling ' , was to add more .
User avatar

Matt Spencer
Posts: 4980
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:30 am
Location: Elsewhere .

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby BritTwit » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:13 pm

TonyA wrote:Hello again , For me , This is more of a Norton Motorcycles UK " Wish List " . I would like to see them continue to develop and enhance the 961 line. Another possibility would be to enlist a specialist firm to help them develop an accessory line . This should include a performance improvement section and a touring improvement section . Say bags , wind protection , touring seat and heated grips . Also the before mentioned Race Kits.
All of these things developed specifically for the Commando 961 . Proven and fully tested by the factory. The gearing changes provided by the sprockets now available thanks to G81CanCycle , The Coote's and CNW are a great start. I would like to hear more about the Air Filter developed by John (G81CanCycle) . I thought he said that it would be a direct replacement . I know for fact that K&N are NOT interested in making a filter that fits the 961 air box. I offered to send them a new Norton filter and the answer was NO , they wouldn't be doing that. Time will tell if any of this happens.


Tony,

I think with the limited numbers of 961’s sold, few manufacturers are interested in making parts for them.
My impression of the Factory mentality is that the 961 is a classic, not a performance machine.
As such they don’t have much interest in pursuing performance improvements.
They will shortly have a V4 1200 available for folks who want all out performance.
This is similar to the thinking of Triumph.
The Bonneville (865) was a classic, Triumph never offered any performance upgrades for it.
They tried to steer buyers to the speed triple or street triple if higher performance was desired.
Of course Triumph introduced a new 1200 Bonneville to improve performance, but not enough to challenge their triple sales.

John (G81CanCycle) was developing a 2 into 1 exhaust for the 961 as well as the improved air filter.
I’m not sure if he still intends to offer these in the near future.

I will keep my eyes open for the PCV that Dynojet said will be offered shortly for the 961.
With that, the door will be open to better performance from our Commands.
1975 850 MKIII Commando
2013 961 Commando Cafe Racer
2006 Triumph Bonneville T100
2003 Ducati 999
User avatar

BritTwit
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby BritTwit » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:19 pm

Matt Spencer wrote:Or Use NITRO . :wink:

Olde 60s Triumphs ran 80 / 20 Nitro Methanol no worries .
Aeroplane that got the piston engine speed record of the nazis used 10 % after melting a motor on 20 % .

With the methanol ( alcohol ) to cool it , its feasable on a air cooled motor . If yyou want to find its mechanical limitations . :P

uprated Fuel System , and keep it rich . Straight Methanol , on a track bike , if legal now , was std. practise pre war .
Grand Prix Auto fuel was ' blended ' . Not Petrol as we know ( Knew ! ) it .

SO , methanol , with a bit of ' ignition improver , would have you at 100 Horsepower . Maybe even Real Horses , straight off .
if you didnt cock it up .


Matt,

Alcohol and Nitro might well provide the power, but I for one have absolutely no experience working with either.
Attempting to use them could only lead to an explosive disaster for me. :lol:
My solution will have to rely on pump fuel.
1975 850 MKIII Commando
2013 961 Commando Cafe Racer
2006 Triumph Bonneville T100
2003 Ducati 999
User avatar

BritTwit
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby iwilson » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:55 pm

TonyA wrote:
All of these things developed specifically for the Commando 961 . Proven and fully tested by the factory.


:lol: As has been shown over and over again it's us muppets that are the test pilots for Norton. My bike is a patch work of fixes and work arounds in response to issues either I or others have experienced. I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep wondering if any performance enhancements will be forth coming. I think the focus is or should be on getting the stock engine fully sorted. Secondly I just can't see the appetite for more power. It's not a trackbike and my Dominator for example has enough power to require some degree of throttle modulation in the twisties. All I would like to see are better versions of the current maps. It's nothing to do with carbs vs. injection, it's still a person at the end of the day programming the ECU or for that matter setting up the carbs. Don't blame the machine blame the man responsible for the machine!
User avatar

iwilson
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:16 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby Fast Eddie » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:22 am

worntorn wrote:
BritTwit wrote:
TonyA wrote: BUT , I stand by what I said before . This engine is capable of 90 HP with reliability. .......
Also, Matt Capri of Triumph Performance intended to develop and market performance products for the 961.
My hope was to build a new age Norton Hot Rod, but currently there are still no components on the market.
So far there is still nothing for the new Nortons other than exhaust systems.
A Power Commander with effective maps would be a nice for a start

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

2. Throttle bodies (TBs)– are also too small, and restrictive with the butterfly valve to provide adequate flow of air for producing good power.
Kenny Dreer’s original 961 design used flatslide 39mm FCR’s. These babies flow a lot more fuel/air than the current throttle bodies.
I wonder if the stock 961 TBs have enough meat on them to be bored out a few mm like the TBs on Hinckley Bonnevilles?
There is a company in the UK that does this.....


Having ridden a Triumph 790 that had the full TPUSA treatment, that is head sent to TPUSA for porting etc, hot cam,air box upgrade, twin 38 mm Kehein FCR's , high compression pistons, upgraded ignition, I would say be careful what you wish for.
In addition to the upgrades, that bike had undergone about a year of farting around with various dyno tuners to solve stalling problems and general running problems. In the end it managed to make 6 extra peak HP on the dyno on it's very best run ( but many runs against 1 stock run, so was it really 6 HP?)
The mid range and low end were totally gutted, virtually no power below 6 k then an decent little band between 6 and 8, that was it. My 1968 650 SS would run away from it using half throttle!
And this was supposed to be a proven performance kit , hundreds if not thousands of these done.


If you have a good runner now it might be best to just enjoy it as is.

Glen


Hmmm, a good point well put Glen !
User avatar
Access Norton VIP Paying Member
Fast Eddie
VIP MEMBER
Posts: 3629
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:48 am
Location: Oxford, England

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby worntorn » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:03 am

On the other hand it is good to see 961 owners discussing possible hotrodding-it means that at least some of the general running issues must be solved or much improved. :D

Glen

worntorn
Posts: 3454
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:43 pm
Location: Langley, B.C.

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby 961al » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:08 pm

worntorn wrote:
BritTwit wrote:
TonyA wrote: BUT , I stand by what I said before . This engine is capable of 90 HP with reliability. .......
Also, Matt Capri of Triumph Performance intended to develop and market performance products for the 961.
My hope was to build a new age Norton Hot Rod, but currently there are still no components on the market.
So far there is still nothing for the new Nortons other than exhaust systems.
A Power Commander with effective maps would be a nice for a start

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

2. Throttle bodies (TBs)– are also too small, and restrictive with the butterfly valve to provide adequate flow of air for producing good power.
Kenny Dreer’s original 961 design used flatslide 39mm FCR’s. These babies flow a lot more fuel/air than the current throttle bodies.
I wonder if the stock 961 TBs have enough meat on them to be bored out a few mm like the TBs on Hinckley Bonnevilles?
There is a company in the UK that does this.....


Having ridden a Triumph 790 that had the full TPUSA treatment, that is head sent to TPUSA for porting etc, hot cam,air box upgrade, twin 38 mm Kehein FCR's , high compression pistons, upgraded ignition, I would say be careful what you wish for.
In addition to the upgrades, that bike had undergone about a year of farting around with various dyno tuners to solve stalling problems and general running problems. In the end it managed to make 6 extra peak HP on the dyno on it's very best run ( but many runs against 1 stock run, so was it really 6 HP?)
The mid range and low end were totally gutted, virtually no power below 6 k then an decent little band between 6 and 8, that was it. My 1968 650 SS would run away from it using half throttle!
And this was supposed to be a proven performance kit , hundreds if not thousands of these done.


If you have a good runner now it might be best to just enjoy it as is.

Glen


Having OWNED a 2004 790 Triumph from new i want to put a word forward in defence of the tuning of such.....
Obviously it depends on who does the tuning and how far you go with the tuning.....
Here in the UK we have a very experienced tuner of said engines by the name of Bob Farnham based near the Motor Racing Circuit of Brands Hatch. Having had all of the above done by Bob (with the exception of staying with the standard cams...oh, and 39mm fcr's by the way...) and perhaps a little bit more... i have a dynoed 32bhp and 20lb ft torque at the rear wheel more than standard and the bike runs STRONG right from tickover to 8000+ rpm. And is reliable ! SO.. if bikes are tuned correctly and by the right person, there should be no problems...
By the way, i also own a 961 cafe racer that has the Norton Short noisy pipes with Norton Decat and the latest remap All provided/done by Norton HQ. The bike runs great, with a steady tickover and decent low/midrange, then the bikes feels like it comes ''on cam'' about 5500 rpm when i really feel the engine come strong . Very exciting to ride, i really don't need anymore power for this type of bike. Regards, AL.

961al
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:06 pm

Re: Dominator dyno run

Postby TonyA » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:20 am

Hello Al , I read a lot of good things about the Farnham engines also.

TonyA
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:14 am
Location: Milwaukee WI. USA

PreviousNext

Return to Norton Commando 961 Motorcycles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest