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check valve

Classic Norton Commando Motorcycles.

check valve

Postby seattle##gs » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:38 am

A guy brought over a MK3 with a top end noise problem he wanted identified. He bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy in Indiana. It looks really good. Not sure how long the middle man had it. Great compression. It starts easily. He started it for me and the noise (harsh metal clacking) did not sound like valve adjustment but it was a place to start. I took off the valve covers and noticed right away that it looked very dry inside. I pointed this out to the owner. The valve clearances were double what they should be. I retorqued the head and set valves. Fired it up without the ex rocker covers on and saw ZERO OIL FLOW. I loosened the rocker line..again ZERO OIL FLOW. YIPE! In his oil feed line to the motor is the common inline check valve, that will go immediately. It was doing the jobb and the oil tank was full to the top. The down side is the crankcase had not wet sumped and kept the bottom end lubricated. Fortunately he resisted the temptation to ride it but he now wants a full motor inspection. I have always been very leery of wet sump valves and this is proof.

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Re: check valve

Postby Nater_Potater » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:39 am

Ouch! I just hope it didn't get enough time to cause any harm to the bottom end.
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Re: check valve

Postby seattle##gs » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:16 pm

No way to know without a teardown. So the choice is to get the oil flowing and see what happens or the long expensive process to tear it down and inspect/replace parts. On the plus side, the current owner contacted the 2nd owner about the engine noise. The 2nd owner refunded $1000 so that will go a long ways.

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Re: check valve

Postby Torontonian » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:48 pm

So be it. My MK 111 came my way after spring loaded check valve failure and rebuild. Earlier photos of it show the problematic valve in place before damage ,rebuild ,and my purchase of said vehicle. I'm convinced now these valves are the devil's work as the danger of them sticking closed is not worth the ri$k. :(
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Re: check valve

Postby CanukNortonNut » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:02 pm

seattle##gs wrote:No way to know without a teardown. So the choice is to get the oil flowing and see what happens or the long expensive process to tear it down and inspect/replace parts. On the plus side, the current owner contacted the 2nd owner about the engine noise. The 2nd owner refunded $1000 so that will go a long ways.


seattle##,
There is no way of telling how much damage has been caused by lack of oil, but that $1000 will go for most of a rebuild on the bottom end... cam, lifters, crank grind, new shells + con rod hardware, gasket kit, etc. And that doesn't include labor. Lucky that it didn't throw a rod. :shock: If that engine is making noises, then I would recommend a tear down. One thing I always do when I re-start my bike from a long winter of inactivity or on a rebuild is to pop the seat off the bike, then kick start the bike and get the engine going. I then open the oil tank filler cap and look at the oil return to see if oil is returning to the oil tank.
I shake my head every time I hear about this wet sump quick fix. :evil: IMHO I live with the wet sump issue. I know at start up, I am always getting my cam splashed with oil the moment the engine starts. Oil gauges and oil sensors are on other threads on this site and are good to explore and food for thought.
Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: check valve

Postby cyclegeezer » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:39 pm

A MK3 with an inline check valve in addition to the one in the timing case? Is that like braces and a belt, but without the positive outcome?
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Re: check valve

Postby concours » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:03 pm

I guess failed faucet washer, AND that the rod bearings/journals are junk :shock:

How much is an oil pressure gage worth now? :wink:

" One thing I always do when I re-start my bike from a long winter of inactivity or on a rebuild is to pop the seat off the bike, then kick start the bike and get the engine going. I then open the oil tank filler cap and look at the oil return to see if oil is returning to the oil tank." False sense of security. The faucet washer/crank seal can be failed, but scavenge will be observed. Get a gage. :idea:
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Re: check valve

Postby nortonspeed » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:33 pm

seattle##gs wrote:In his oil feed line to the motor is the common inline check valve, that will go immediately. It was doing the jobb and the oil tank was full to the top. The down side is the crankcase had not wet sumped and kept the bottom end lubricated.


Couple of questions:
1. what type of 'common' inline check valve was fitted?
2. 'the crankcase had not wet sumped' then how was the bottom end kept lubricated?
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Re: check valve

Postby Mike B » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:18 pm

Be sure to check the conrod small ends.

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Re: check valve

Postby The Buckeye Rider » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:44 pm

I had one of those plastic valves that came apart at speed. It cot me $2000 USD and I did all the labor.
I too will live with wet sumping! Although the +0.40 pistons, stage 2 cam and 21 tooth sprocket almost made it seem worthwhile,,,,uh no it didn't!!! But it is better then before.
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Re: check valve

Postby CanukNortonNut » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:53 pm

concours wrote: " False sense of security. The faucet washer/crank seal can be failed, but scavenge will be observed. Get a gage. :idea:

I have one and use it at start up and during riding. :)
Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: check valve

Postby seattle##gs » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:10 pm

I do not know how many miles were on it after the check valve was fitted. The motor started in a couple of kicks and sounded very good..and didn't smoke, of course. Still, it had a sharp metal clack sound in the head area so we stopped and I did some investigation.
Next, I will remove the small plug in the crankcase bottom and see if any oil comes out. If there is about a cup I will feel better about the situation. The owner also complains of extreme vibration. I will check the isolastics and all engine mounting bolts. I would like to replace the feed oil line eliminating the check valve, pump a lot of oil over the rockers and cam, start it and check for oil pumping. If all looks and sounds good I would like to take it for a few blocks and see what he means about the vibration. By the way, it has a single Mikuni so the vibration should be minimized. He has hinted that the flywheel might have been turned around on the crank but I do not know what he has based this on. I would like to experience the vibration before I pull the motor apart but I am taking a chance. I can send the crank off to get it balanced and ground if need be.
I do not know who makes the valve but it is a small plastic piece with a clear band. approx one inch long not counting the spigots. I seen several of these.

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Re: check valve

Postby CanukNortonNut » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:25 pm

seattle##gs wrote:I do not know how many miles were on it after the check valve was fitted.
I do not know who makes the valve but it is a small plastic piece with a clear band. approx one inch long not counting the spigots. I seen several of these.

I have seen this type fail. :shock: Don't use them. There might be a thread link in this forum. Do a search.
Regards,
Thomas
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Re: check valve

Postby Lannis » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:44 pm

One more Norton motor sacrificed to the God of Bodges instead of just fixing the problem ....

I had to sacrifice my own BSA motor before I woke up and realized that putting a check valve on the suction side of a rotary pump is the worst idea since someone said ‘yeah let’s take this suspiciously large wooden horse into Troy, statues are all the rage this season ...'

But it won't stop the next guy from doing it. It's just SO quick and easy; snip snip, clamp clamp and it's ALL fixed! Until it blocks the line.

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Re: check valve

Postby seattle##gs » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:19 pm

I told the owner to accept the fact that Nortons wet sump. I showed him the comstock breather assy. and told him that is as good as he can hope for.

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