79x100 wrote: I sometimes hook for another gear but that's all there is !

Very nicely explained, and me too on the occasional search for 5th, these Nortons just want to go

Back in port again. Thanks very much for posting these photo's 79x100. Your control rod set up is much better than mine being much more direct push and pull. As you mention mine would be creating more sideways stress than is necessary on quadrant lever. I will be closely looking at this to see if I can reverse levers on shafts etc or whether I should modify. I will also definitely be getting bushes turned up for front and back as the one you have posted. I guess it's one of the learning curves receiving a bike that has been put together and not knowing one's self if it has been put together correctly and what different parts or set up's should actually look like. I really appreciate everyone's help so far and being fairly new to the vintage scene, I am glad there are forums such as these to help us maintain,restore and enjoy our vintage bikes. I look forward to letting you all know of the positive outcome to this thread some day in the near future. Thanks

G'day Everyone. Home at last but for how long I'm not sure this time. Anyway update on the job at hand. I received my new old stock (nos) pawls and as you can see there is quite a bit of wear on my old ones. This would be contributing to not pushing the ratchet to it's stops at either end of it's travel.

I also took my rear camplate, nos ratchet, pawl carrier and spring cover plate down to the local machine shop to see if they could bush the cover plate. The nos ratchet I got is a good fit through cam plate now. What didn't occur to me is that because the pawl carrier shaft is worn as well as spring cover plate, a bush wont work because it still has to pass over spline and therefore will still be sloppy on worn shaft. The only way around this is to have shaft built up with weld and then machined to be a snug fit through cover plate after that is also machined round again and perhaps bush fitted. A very expensive exercise. I have therefore sourced a secondhand pawl carrier and cover plate from the NOC in Britain yesterday. Fingers crossed that these have minimal wear.

I have also sourced secondhand external levers, ratchet and quadrant, for the gear change as mine are obviously not right on examination of photo's posted previously by 79x100. Could someone be so kind as to measure the length of their control rod for me as I will make a nice straight one instead of my bent bodge job.
On another matter ,while I have cover off gearbox, my kickstart stop piece looks pretty knackered. I'm guessing it is not supposed to have that big step in it. It has actually compressed to the point it has minute cracks. I can punch rivet out and have it built up and machined back into a nice shape for around $80. Not sure where I will get another rivet from though. Can't find an alternative stop piece. Otherwise I guess I could just put it back the way it is and treat her gently now I know what it looks like. It's only for the kickstart return to the top right ? What do you think ?


One more thing, How did you get small thumbnails for your photos on here that link to big picture in yout photobucket acount 79x100 ? Tried half a dozen different ways and nothing seems to work for me.

Your old pawls are indeed in pretty poor shape and must have been having a hard time picking up on the ratchet. New ones will definitely help.

I'm afraid that I hadn't considered wear on the shaft either. Having checked my worst one, I can see that there is a little wear there too. If the s/h one that you receive is not too bad then I'm sure that it will be good enough to solve things. The bush in the carrier does extend outboard of the cover so although it wouldn't be good practice, there would still be some extra support on a narrow unworn section.

I'm not sure what I'd do about the kick start stop. It's never nice reassembling with damaged components. I suppose to some extent it depends whether you're intending to do the odd run around the town or more serious mileage. From memory, one of the dealers (was it RGM ?) sells stops for the AMC box. Are they the same ? Making a rivet would not be a problem.

PhotoBucket confuses me regularly. Somewhere along the line I have included the clickable thumbnails in my options but I'm beggered if I can work it out again. However, if you look at the sub menu for the individual image, you have a 'Share' option. Clicking on that brings up a new screen which includes 'Get Link Code' and the thumbnail is one of the options there.

Well here is the latest for those of interested. I ended up drilling the end off the rivet for the kick start stop and removing. I welded up the stop myself using stainless rods on the hardened steel. Stainless because it creates a hard weld so I'm told. Then had to rivet the piece back in which involved getting a pack of 50 rivets from the USA would you believe. Couldn't find one here anywhere. Anyway peening the end over was a little difficult considering I only had a large ball peen hammer on hand. I did mark the casing a couple of times but doesn't really matter. Did annoy me though. Anyway I was very satisfied with the result with the stop piece being held in very solidly.

Next my 2nd hand pawl carrier and pawl return spring cover plate arrived from NOC in Britain and were in very good condition with hardly any wear. The cover plate actually had the steel bush pressed in which as we know was off the slightly later models. I used a small round sanding piece in my dremel to slowly enlarge hole in outside cover until bush was a very snug fit.

I still have the same linkage arrangement although I did turn the bottom one around the right way and adjusted rod slightly to suit. I am still trying to locate a upper linkage arm so I can change the setup to how it is supposed to be. I put it all together and fitted cover to gearbox for trial run. Nice firm gearstick now with very positive stops and low and behold I can seem to get all the gears while spinning back wheel by hand
Ok so I spent the rest of the day fitting all the bits and pieces back on the bike taking great care and pride in my work on the way. I left the primary chain case cover off until last to make sure clutch was working properly. I kicked the bike through a few times and noticed something a little disturbing The clutch was working beautifully, remember I replaced all the fibre plates with new ones and made new inserts for the sprocketsection. But why the hell has it got this disturbing wobble. Pulled the clutch off again just to make sure it was seated properly on shaft. Yep no problems there. Put it all back on. Still got a bloody wobble. Then it dawned on me: perhaps the shaft is slightly bent. And guess what ? It F*****G IS !!! Held an edge alongside shaft end while a friend slowly kicked it over. S**T !!!
So guess what I'll be doing now ? I'm going away again very shortly so will probably not pull it all down again until I get back. I will indeed post again here when I finally get it running to let you all know how the gear change is performing. Until then, be safe and have fun. Glenn

Glenn, I missed your reply and was wondering how you were getting on. It looks good so far.

Have you been able to straighten the shaft OK or have you located an NOS WD one ? It must take quite a bit of abuse to bend the shaft on a 500 single.

I'm looking forward to hearing the first road test reports.

Hi 79x100,
Would you believe since my last post I have spent a total of 5 days at home on two separate occasions in transit. But the end is near In 8 days time I will be home and able to continue my quest to get the old girl up and running with my renewed enthusiasm. I will take the shaft around to a local engineering shop that is able to straighten it so I'm told. In any case I know where there are some alternative shafts for sale on the net.
The bent shaft is an indicator to what I think has happened in the past when taking something else into account. I don't think I mentioned before but the gearbox case has been welded up all around the main bearing. My theory now is that at some stage the primary chain has either come off or broken at high speed jamming up within the chain case and causing the aforementioned damage to both box and shaft. I wouldn't be surprised if it is not the original chain case as I'm sure it would have been damaged severely if this is indeed what happened.
I've also had a lot of time to think about my progress so far and something else has dawned on me. When I change the gears the gear stick must travel it's full arc up or down before anything happens. As we know, the upper linkage arm on my box is not quite correct and has had a small repair at some point. I've convinced myself that it may even be a tiny bit shorter than yours after comparing our photos. If this were the case then due to the shorter length and hence length of arc it travels through it would not be pulling or pushing the bottom lever the full arc of travel either. This would also make adjustment for gear changes harder to get right. If you can follow me Maybe to much time for thinking !
I should have a nice new set of cycle thread taps and dies waiting for me at the post office on my return home. I am going to make up a new straight shaft for the linkage arrangement. I am still on the lookout for an upper linkage arm replacement.
Can I ask you a question ? On your 16H, where the gearbox shaft comes through the inner chain case hole do you have just a elongated slot there , or do you also have two pieces of tin riveted together, one each side of the slot to minimise oil loss through the hole ? These two pieces of tin have a small hole for the shaft to fit through and are able to move backwards and forwards as gearbox position dictates. Apparently these were fitted on later models around 1947 onwards. Mine just has a large elongated hole and I was concerned about losing oil through this hole which would find its way to the back tyre.
So thats about it for now. More updates to follow in the weeks to come, Stay tuned, Glenn

Glad to hear that everything's under control Glenn. pm sent by the way.

There could be any number of reasons for a welded case and a bent shaft. If the shaft's not too bad then it should be possible to tweak it straight.

If the gear arms are not the correct lengths then the leverage ration will indeed be altered. The box has a pretty long travel - that's the one area where I feel that the AMC box was a positive improvement (but it gained a horrible clutch actuator). I can't help you with an arm. I have a worn lower arm but not a top one.

I'm sure that the mainshaft sealing discs were fitted prior to 1947 but the design may have altered in detail. Certainly, there were no felts between the two halves, as on later models.

My 16H is a bitsa, engine-wise but that does mean that I've collected lots of bits along the way. The chaincase that's on my bike at the moment has a 'half moon' inverted gutter above the mainshaft sealing disc which would help keep oil from running down between the disc halves.

The NOS inner that I have waiting to go on to replace the rather battered and repaired one currently fitted doesn't have the half-moon which appears at least as far back as the 1937 parts book so it's either a really early case or the pressing was simplified as a wartime economy. The 1937 book clearly shows discs fitted, although they don't have any facility for felt seals - there is a loose felt simply placed over the shaft which runs between the sprocket and the rear of the case.

I think that if I were you, I'd rivet a couple of discs together just to ensure that nothing large and nasty gets in - especially in Australia as it could be something that bites you when you take the cover off !

Well it's been a long time between posts and the old cantankerous beast (don't call it the old girl anymore) is still not quite on the road but the end should be near. Oh, I've said that before haven't I So I ended up sourcing a whole replacement box from the UK. You may remember the welding on the old box which was around the mainshaft bearing ? Well I heated up the case and removed the bearing when I had it back apart.

There is crappy welding in here as well as not being even and a few hairline cracks still around the edges. This case now lives under my bench and maybe one day I will see if someone very skilled with alloy can fix it all up.
The new box arrived, was promptly dismantled, and a new set of bearings and bushes were sourced from Mcintosh in NZ. A couple of the bushes needed some machining to fit properly and at the same time I had the bottom mounting hole drilled out and fitted with top hat bushes that meet in the middle. This has removed the slight wear that was in the bottom lug as well as made a nice snug fit between frame mounts. This box had the two correct external linkage arms and I made up a rod to join the two. Assembly took me quite a few goes trying to get the end float just right using different thickness washers. The thrust washer has been replaced with a flat needle roller bearing that has washers of different thickness either side. This was a suggestion from Ken at Mcintosh. He was very helpful and spent quite a bit of time on the phone with me on a couple of occasions giving advice. Much appreciated. Although the box is now back together and working beautifully when turned by hand it is weeping oil where the outer cover meets the case at the bottom. I just used that silicon gasket maker stuff but I think I will put a very thin paper gasket there as well which means I'll probably have to play with end float again. But maybe after I get to ride it I'll do this.
Turns out the clutch backing plate had a warp in it as well and is of the thinner earlier type. I have ordered a second hand thicker one from the NOC as well as later model clutch spring studs that have nuts to hold springs in place rather than little set screws. The small set screws and studs have a habit of stripping and one of mine was indeed pretty poor. These studs are interchangeable between early and later clutches. I'm hoping this stuff is there on my return from work in 3 weeks.
Now primary chaincases. I should start a thread where people can post pictures of thier chaincase outers and inners when they know they have the correct one for the model and year. The one I have currently is not correct and off a later model bike and was basically bodged up to fit. I can live with this but thought I would like the correct one for my bike if it appeared somewhere. Enter ebay once again. I purchased one from the UK supposedly for rigid framed models 16H,1,18,ES2 etc. All the ones I see, seem to mention all these models. Well I can tell you right now that a 1938 ES2 has it's own chaincase that is unique to this model and is listed as such in the parts manual. In fact, there are four different one's listed for 1938 alone for the various models. Of course I didn't discover this until I had it sandblasted and spent a great deal of time and effort restoring and painting it. The inner seemed to fit ok when I tried it without gearbox. Once gearbox was back in though, I realised it wasn't going on far enough. The hole at the front where crankshaft comes through is actually recessed back towards the motor about 1/2" which in turn puts the rest of the chaincase 1/2" further out. Couldn't get it on far enough for the clutch or large cover nut for outer to take. All the holes still line up though. I don't see the point in altering this one when I already have a bodged up one, so under the bench it goes. When examining different photo's and pictures I've noticed the rib patterns in the inner cases are slightly different between models of case.
In the meantime I have also had the brakes relined after sourcing some second hand shoes that still had spring lugs on as these were broken off and bodged up as well. The brake place then went and promptly broke one off I tell ya, nothing is ever easy ! Fitted new rear drum/sprocket, and have new sprocket for gearbox as well. Oh yea, the reason I had the front drum apart in the first place was I was standing looking at the bike from dead ahead sitting up at my level on this new bike stand I bought, (best thing I ever did), and what's that ? A bloody bow in the wheel. You've got to be kidding me. Who would go to all the trouble to powdercoat a bowed rim I really don't know how I hadn't noticed it before, it was that bad. Needless to say I sent this off to bloke who specialises in old bike wheels to let him sort it out. I must be running out of patience.
I also got some new rubbers for the rubber mounted handlebars, that had no rubber but bodged up with old steel tubing and promptly fitted them and couldn't really work out how to stop bars rotating. Even when done up tight you could push on them and they would move. I then discovered through a bit of research that the bars that were rubber mounted actually had a bracket brazed to them that attaches to top of forks. A quick phone call to Ken again to see if he had any of these brackets and he had a jig for this very thing. I'll have one of those thanks. I also had to have a sleeve turned up for under the twist grip as the handlebars reduced from 1" to 15/16" for the throttle. The bloke had just wrapped masking tape around the bar to fill up the space to 1". Triumph handlebars I discovered, but I like the shape to much to change.
Anyway, I could go on further with other little bodged up details including engine number but will cease to bore you. I thought I would let you know what was happening as I received so much input from you guy's so far and you probably wondered where I'd gone and what had happened. I will update again hopefully with a ride report. Until then BEWARE THE BIKE BOUGHT FROM PICTURES

Glad to read that you're getting there. I'd suspect that your chaincase with the large offset is an early 1930s one and predates the 1934 addition of the second drive side main bearing which brought with it an enlarged bearing housing / inner chaincase mount.

If you can positively identify it then I'm sure that it will be quite saleable and it would be a shame to butcher it. Someone out there wants it !