Cookie wrote:I'm sure you are going to check the valves while you have the head off.

Absolutely, Cookie. LaNelle recommended a machine shop that has done British bikes for her for years. I plan to take the head to them and have them check it out completely.

Al

L.A.B. wrote:

Tulsaalva wrote:Thinking it may have a blown head gasket, I did a compression check and found 100 psi in the left cylinder and 130 in the right. I'm sure that's not within specs but have not found anything in the manual which tells me what the specs should be.

My plan is to remove the head, have it trued (planed) and replace the head gasket.

Head gaskets do blow occasionally, and it could be "just one of those things" that can happen, and could be cured simply by fitting a new (composite) head gasket?

I would certainly check that the head is actually in need of truing before doing so. As with all British bikes, it's a good idea to re-torque the head periodically to help prevent it happening.

I have a follow up question on this, Les, based on what I read in the Service Manual. I need to read it again and will return later to ask it.

Thanks!
Al

Cookie wrote:I'd be most concerned with the difference but did you take the test with throttle and choke open and kick until it stops going up?

We did kick the bike until the gauge quit moving, Cookie, but I'm not really sure if Seventeen (who was on the bike kicking it) held the throttle open. I'm sure I didn't remember to tell him to do so. Just to make sure, we'll re-do the compression test and report back. I knew that and should have remembered it. Thank you!

Al

Generally if you are low on one side you want to find out why, seems like the training book told us more than 10% variation was time to disassemble and inspect, but that was years ago. All you will gain from the test will be to see if you meet the spcs GP posted. Put a bit of oil in and check it again, if it comes up you might need rings.

Damn! Seventeen and I redid the compression check on the Bonneville. The first retest with the throttle fully open yielded the same results, 110 in the left and 130 in the right. After adding a squirt of oil to both cylinders we got over 160 on both. I guess we have a ring problem and the engine will have to come out for a rebuild!

My worry, though, is that we have an oiling problem leading to ring failure in less than 2,000 miles. There was a problem with the oil pump on earlier '79s, both D and E models. A two chamber oil pump was used. That pump had two ball bearings that were held in place by springs, intended to stop the oil from flowing backwards. Our service manager traced the failures to an elliptical seat, causing the spherical ball to not seal. Peter Britton, the export sales manager at Meriden at the time, then traced the problem to a worker who was not properly seating the ball. The system used was to drop the ball into position and, using a punch, rap the ball smartly so that it formed the seat in the softer brass pump body. She was bored from years of the same work, and wasn't doing the job correctly. The punch had to be held perfectly straight; she was hitting it at an angle.

Our service manager solved the problem by asking a local German machinist to make a punch-like tool out of hardened steel which was essentially a ball bearing with a guide that fit down into the pump and held the ball straight. When the other end was rapped, the seat had to be formed perfectly round. Just to be sure, the ball was dropped into place and rapped again. We had several of the tools made and sent some to Meriden along with instructions for their use.

Meriden, in the meantime, had developed a three chambered pump which was intended to produce higher oil pressure. An attempt was made to retro-fit all the bikes we sold with the new pump but I don't know if our Bonny got the upgrade or not. I soon will.

Thanks, Y'all! I'll update this as soon as I have more information.

Al

Tulsaalva wrote:Meriden, in the meantime, had developed a three chambered pump which was intended to produce higher oil pressure. An attempt was made to retro-fit all the bikes we sold with the new pump but I don't know if our Bonny got the upgrade or not. I soon will.

Al,

Thanks for the interesting Meriden anecdote!

The only upgrade the factory made to the oil pump that I'm aware of, was a new (71-7317) four valve pump introduced for 1980 that had two extra exhaust ball valves?

A small amount of metal has to be removed from the inside of the timing cover in order to fit the four valve pump in place of the original two valve pump.

http://www.britishcycle.com/Products/tr ... _pumps.htm

L.A.B. wrote:

Tulsaalva wrote:Meriden, in the meantime, had developed a three chambered pump which was intended to produce higher oil pressure. An attempt was made to retro-fit all the bikes we sold with the new pump but I don't know if our Bonny got the upgrade or not. I soon will.

Al,

Thanks for the interesting Meriden anecdote!

The only upgrade the factory made to the oil pump that I'm aware of, was a new (71-7317) four valve pump introduced for 1980 that had two extra exhaust ball valves?

A small amount of metal has to be removed from the inside of the timing cover in order to fit the four valve pump in place of the original two valve pump.

http://www.britishcycle.com/Products/tr ... _pumps.htm

As usual Les, I believe you're right and your encyclopedic knowledge comes to the rescue of my thirty year old memory. After looking at the drawings of pump #71-7317, I believe it is the replacement pump that was used. I can't be sure, of course. It is possible there was a discarded three-valve design between the two but I doubt it. My guess is that my memory was wrong. I do remember that David had to remove material from the timing cover in order to fit the new pump.

LaNelle carries the new pump: $195.00! Ouch! Now I need to go see if I need one.

Thank you!

Al

L.A.B. wrote:

Tulsaalva wrote:Meriden, in the meantime, had developed a three chambered pump which was intended to produce higher oil pressure. An attempt was made to retro-fit all the bikes we sold with the new pump but I don't know if our Bonny got the upgrade or not. I soon will.

Al,

Thanks for the interesting Meriden anecdote!

The only upgrade the factory made to the oil pump that I'm aware of, was a new (71-7317) four valve pump introduced for 1980 that had two extra exhaust ball valves?

A small amount of metal has to be removed from the inside of the timing cover in order to fit the four valve pump in place of the original two valve pump.

http://www.britishcycle.com/Products/tr ... _pumps.htm

The oil pump is removed and appears (to me) to be the original two-valve unit. There is no part number stamped on it. (I'm spoiled by Porsche in this regard.) From the looks of the diagram and from my memory of the four-valve units we used in Germany, the two bolts on the bottom of the newer unit enter the pump at an angle. The ones on my pump are in straight alignment, looking much like British Cycle's diagram of the original unit. Seventeen took some pictures of our pump but was unable to upload them and had to leave for an important engagement... a friend's birthday party. We'll try again when he gets home.

I found metal particles in the oil which seem to be aluminum, since a magnet does not attract them. Also, there is no sign of a modification on the inside of the cover.

My guess is that our Bonny missed the upgrade for the usual reason. "Use this last one on a customer's bike. We'll fix Al's later." "Later" never came because I sold the bike and my shares in the company and returned to Oklahoma. Two years later I got the bike back along with a set of pistons and a lot of other parts, (no oil pump) which the bike needed. By that time, our service manager in Germany had followed me to Tulsa and was working in a bike shop here. He fixed the bike then but apparently forgot that the bike never got the oil pump upgrade. That's my guess, anyway.

The bike was placed in storage then (about 1983) where it stayed until last year when we started bringing it back to life.

Al

The 4 valve pump is a desirable upgrade, but as far as I know, it doesn't supply any more oil than the 2 valve one?

Literally thousands of those 2V pumps have been fitted to Triumphs over a 40 year period since the first Speed Twins were made in 1938, and they are an ingeniously simple and reliable plunger pump that only requires a single one-way valve on the exhaust side of each plunger (one for feed and one for scavenge) in order to work, however the weakness of the design is that it only needs a very small piece of dirt or swarf to become trapped under the ball valve to completely stop the pump working and extra care is always needed when cleaning the feed and scavenge strainers to ensure that no particles of dirt or swarf are allowed to remain that could possibly be dislodged a find their way into the pump. With two exhaust valves "in series", if one valve should become disabled by dirt trapped under the ball seating then the pump won't stop working.
The best modification that can be made in my opinion is to fit a paper element oil filter. Either a spin-on cartridge type that can be fitted into the reservoir return pipe, or a "Charlies" oil strainer conversion, that replaces the gauze strainer inside the frame oil reservoir with a paper element filter. There is also a spin-on filter kit that can be fitted on the supply side of the pump, although this setup requires modifications to be made to the timing cover.

This is the Charlies style filter I have fitted to my T140V with its 2V pump.



Most of these kits use a B25 filter. This one I have uses a slightly larger filter that I believe comes from a Mercedes car?

I'm sure the filter is a good idea, Les, judging from the debris I found in the oil. Cleanliness is always good in any engine. Where is it available?

British Cycle writes glowing of their 70-9421/A Morgo Rotary Triumph Unit oil pump kit. They write of better reliability, more oil flow, and steady flow as opposed to the pulsing flow with the plunger type. What do you think of these?

Al

Tulsaalva wrote: Where is it available?

I'd try your normal Triumph parts supplier (LaNelle?) first? As I've seen them offered for sale by USA parts suppliers, if you can't get one, then a lot of UK Triumph parts suppliers sell them. Let us know if you have trouble finding one in the US.

Tulsaalva wrote:British Cycle writes glowing of their 70-9421/A Morgo Rotary Triumph Unit oil pump kit. They write of better reliability, more oil flow, and steady flow as opposed to the pulsing flow with the plunger type. What do you think of these?

I've read a number of mixed opinions about Morgo rotary pumps, some opinions are that they're simply unnecessary for road use and supply too much oil, the standard oil pressure relief valve certainly has to be modified to use one, but I haven't used one myself so I can't speak from any direct experience.
Personally I think I'd be more inclined to go for the Morgo plunger type if I intended to upgrade the oil circulation....which I'm not! http://www.morgo.co.uk/plunger.html

This morning I did the test described in the workshop manual. The pump failed. The ball on the larger-diameter side is not sealing.

I decided to try and fix the pump using the method we first used in Germany and described in the workshop manual (using a punch to smartly hit the ball to form a seat in the brass body). I'm embarrassed to say that I could only remove the square bolt on the small side. The bolt on the large side is so tight that the wrench rounded the corners.

I inspected the seat on the small side. Even though it seemed to be sealing, the seat is not evenly formed around the hole. I have declared the oil pump to be trash and will order a new one from LaNelle on Tuesday. (She doesn't open on Monday.)

In the meantime the bike has another challenge that may have contributed to the breakdown by lowering the oil level in the primary case. There is a crack in the aluminum where the primary chain adjuster threads into the primary case. It results in a drop of oil falling about every half-hour. I've been told by some blokes at LaNelle's that it's not an "unheard-of" problem. They referred me to a fellow whom they say is an artist with a Tig welder and can fix it "better than new." I like "better than new!"

Next, I'll learn whether I only need rings or pistons as well. Would anyone like to offer an opinion? Stock Triumph or after-market? Keep in mind that "better than new" is preferred.

I still need to learn where the aluminum chips in the oil came from and address that as well.

It looks like the "School of Hard Knocks" tuition has been increased by several hundred dollars. I don't like it but I refuse to cut corners on rebuilding a Bonneville. Every day we have fewer of them.

Thanks, Y'all!

Al

Tulsaalva wrote: The bolt on the large side is so tight that the wrench rounded the corners.

They are often very tight. The "large side" of the pump is the scavenge side.

Tulsaalva wrote:In the meantime the bike has another challenge that may have contributed to the breakdown by lowering the oil level in the primary case.

I wouldn't have considered that to be a serious oil leak (not by Brit bike standards anyway) and it is doubtful that an occasional drip of oil from the primary case would have contributed to any engine damage, unless the level of oil in the frame reservoir had been allowed to drop to a dangerously low level as a result?

Tulsaalva wrote:Next, I'll learn whether I only need rings or pistons as well. Would anyone like to offer an opinion? Stock Triumph or after-market? Keep in mind that "better than new" is preferred.

I'd still opt for standard replacement Hepolite/AP/Federal Mogul (or whatever else they may be calling themselves this week?) pistons and rings, no doubt other choices are available on your side of the pond, from Wiseco or another performance piston manufacturer?

L.A.B. wrote:

Tulsaalva wrote: The bolt on the large side is so tight that the wrench rounded the corners.

They are often very tight. The "large side" of the pump is the scavenge side.

"Very tight" is a good description. I've "boogered up" the head so much now that I'm sure it's in there to stay. Even if I did get it out, it's doubtful, I imagine, that I'd be able to find a replacement.

Tulsaalva wrote:In the meantime the bike has another challenge that may have contributed to the breakdown by lowering the oil level in the primary case.

I wouldn't have considered that to be a serious oil leak (not by Brit bike standards anyway) and it is doubtful that an occasional drip of oil from the primary case would have contributed to any engine damage, unless the level of oil in the frame reservoir had been allowed to drop to a dangerously low level as a result?

I had the primary gasket sealed. The leak is at the crack I described. I was thinking that the primary case may have been depleted during long idle times in the winter. Seventeen might have started the bike on a pretty winter day when there wasn't enough oil in the primary. Not true?

Tulsaalva wrote:Next, I'll learn whether I only need rings or pistons as well. Would anyone like to offer an opinion? Stock Triumph or after-market? Keep in mind that "better than new" is preferred.

I'd still opt for standard replacement Hepolite/AP/Federal Mogul (or whatever else they may be calling themselves this week?) pistons and rings, no doubt other choices are available on your side of the pond, from Wiseco or another performance piston manufacturer?

Wiseco has been a good name here for many years. I used to know the people who owned the company when I was a manufacturers' rep in the industry. I'll ask LaNelle on Tuesday what's available and what the other Anglophiles most often use. I like to support her shop because she does such a good job of keeping parts that we need. Besides, her husband and I were high school classmates about a century ago.

Thanks, Les!

Al