BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Classic Norton Commando Motorcycles.

BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Robert_Norton » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:08 pm

I hope that some board member here, with accounts on other appropriate vintage motorcycle websites, will repost this warning so that someone is not defrauded while purchasing this bike ...

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I’ve been ripped off a few times on eBay, on some big ticket items, but never on a bike. But because of the sour eBay transactions I’ve encountered, and because I like Nortons, I feel compelled to post regarding a currently active auction on eBay in which I believe the seller is knowingly misrepresenting what it is, and probably not out of ignorance but in order to secure a higher sales price.

Here’s a link to the bike in question, followed by the auction Item number in case the link doesn’t work:

[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-DUNSTALL-NORTON-810-MK-2-MINT-CONDITION-2K-MILES-NEW-FLAWLESS-JEWEL-/230837423557?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item35befb8dc5#ht_940wt_1168
[/url]


eBay auction Item number: 230837423557


The first and most obvious thing that caught my attention when I viewed this auction is that the mufflers are not Dunstall Decibel Silencer mufflers, but likely Emgo knockoffs. They might not be made by Emgo, but they’re sure not made by Dunstall. There’s no Dunstall brand stamped on the side, and Dunstall never made mufflers with such a short section from the circumferential weld to the end, or with the rolling and slightly decreasing diameter shape that the Emgo knockoff mufflers have. The lack of the Dunstall brand stamped into the side, and the slightly different shape at the end, are the two features that make Emgo copies so easy to identify.

I did write to the seller to inform him that the bike should have Dunstall mufflers if it was all original as he’s stating, and at this time my contact to him regarding the matter has not been disclosed to prospective buyers in the auction description.

In the item description of the auction the seller claims everything is “TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND PERFECT,” which is very much not correct, due to the fact that the original Dunstall Decibel silencers are missing.

Here’s the seller’s unedited description that is currently running in the eBay auction. I’ve removed the seller’s phone number:
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1972 DUNSTALL NORTON MK 2 ,1983 MILES FROM NEW ,TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND PERFECT ,BORRANIS ,BIG BORE 76MM STROKE 89MM CAPACITY 810 CC,LIGHT ALLOY BIG BORE CYLINDER ,RE SPHERED AND MACHINING OF COMBUSTION CHAMBERS , DUAL DUNSTALL DISC BRAKES , FACTORY FAIRING ,BIKE IS AS NEW ,MUSEUM QUALITY ,EVERYTHING WORKS ,ESTATE SALE ,WE AT BUYERS EXPENSE CAN SHIP WORLDWIDE ,REASONABLE RESERVE ,SERIOUS QUESTIONS 503-xxxxxx .BIKE IS A RARE JEWEL ,BID TO WIN !!!
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There’s a bunch of other details that may indicate the bike has been apart, or is a bike assembled from various Dunstall bits. Not that either would be a bad thing, especially if it had been restored and the engine rebuilt, it’s just that that’s not how it’s being represented, and it might be worth a lot less if it was accurately described – especially if it’s not an authentic factory-produced Dunstall.


Consider the following:

I have looked at many photos of Dunstall bikes, and I’ve seen nothing from that time period (1972) that has the seat upholstered in that style, with the seat-cover pulled down and around the edge of the seat pan. I have seen photos of Atlas bikes upholstered similarly, and of course it could be possible the seat was reupholstered this way, although I have no reason to believe that is the situation here.

The headers are Dunstall headers, but all pictures I’ve seen of bikes purported to be original factory Dunstall 810 bikes had the 2-1-2 exhaust headers, and of course the Dunstall Decibel silencers. The headers on this bike are the headers Dunstall offered prior to the development of the 2-1-2 system that more commonly appeared on the 810 models. Maybe it was an option, but I doubt it, especially since there are no Dunstall mufflers and the seat also appears to be unlike the Dunstall seat I’ve seen in all other pictures of 810’s I’ve viewed (probably less than 10 bikes).

Dunstall didn’t use steel-braided oil lines on his bikes. The front brake lines are braided stainless, too.

The mirrors aren’t original Norton mirrors. I’m not sure what Dunstall used for mirrors, or if he replaced the factory ones. The mirrors on this bike are similar to a style commonly offered on eBay as replacements for Norton Commando.

The timing cover and transmission covers both appear to be held on by bolts with Allen-heads, and I don’t think Dunstall bikes came fitted like that.

The transmission inspection cover has Norton engraved on it. Again, this is probably not a Dunstall touch and is another detail indicative that this bike is something other than an original, unrestored factory Dunstall 810.

The brackets holding the mufflers to the rubber mounts are unlike any other Dunstall brackets I’ve seen.

Note the condition of the logos on the tank, and how one is more faded than the other. The photo of the right-side logo isn’t good to determine for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn to learn if the tank had been repainted around the logos; that’s what it looks like to me. The color red is particularly susceptible to fading when exposed to sunlight, so with as much difference as there is between the two tank logos, it’s possible the tank will be noticeably lighter on the right side, or should be.

The polishing of the rear wheel hub is done so well that it seems like the wheel would have to be dismantled in order to get it as uniformly shiny as it is.

And getting back to the engine, the head may or may not have Dunstall work done to it, and this seller would have no way of knowing whether it did or not, since it’s unlikely he’s the original owner, or that he’s had the engine head off. Dunstall may have marked the heads he worked on, but I can’t recall ever learning if he did or how.


And to get into the unseemly side of things, read the posts at this link to learn about another bike sale this seller was involved with. Note that it appeared originally on a different site, “Bevelheads” for Ducatis:

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675564


And again here you’ll see someone else mention that the same seller once listed another bike (a Laverda?) as original, when in fact it was some sort of conversion. There’s mention in the threads about a Ferrari that he sold also, and that it wasn’t what it was supposed to be. So there is some history of this seller misrepresenting vehicles, both cars and bikes. And for those still reading, here’s some links for the people discussing the incident with the Laverda:

http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... ic=83268.0

http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... 68.20;wap2


And a few keywords so that search engines will find this for future persons that are considering doing business with this person:

Robert Muis, eBay, shelbob, ducati, bevelhead, laverda, Ferrari
“Robert Muis”

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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby bwolfie » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:21 pm

It has Avon super Venoms and allen head bolts on the head. by the spark plugs. Defiantly not as represented. I hate sellers like that.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Snorton74 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:56 pm

I checked out those links to other forums. Sure seems like the same guy. How is his seller rating 100%? Good of you to put the word out. Only buy bikes in person!
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby concours » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:59 am

747 transactions, 100% feedback score... and you guys are rat-packing him? He goes WAAAYYYYY beyond most sellers and includes a phone number so an interested party can call and interogate him. It's great there is a lot of knowledge about the bikes here, but geez, who in the world would spend all the money on a "perfect, all original" ANYTHING just on a persons say-so anyway? If the market is strong enough, then some uninformed folks WILL. They can, will and do pay big money for something that's not as nice as it first appears. Happens everyday. Then, they may begin to learn of the finer points, may improve the bike, may sell at a loss, may get /build another. If a person is interested, then perform the due dilligence, leave something for the unknown and bid what you want to pay. Or simply click away.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby concours » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:36 am

Snorton74 wrote:I checked out those links to other forums. Sure seems like the same guy. How is his seller rating 100%? Good of you to put the word out. Only buy bikes in person!



That's one way to do it.... but the reality is, MOST of business today is at least in part, electronic. All depends on your own comfort level as a horse trader.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby kevbo82 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:21 am

seems from his feedback, and the description he buys/sells cars and motorcycles from estates. He probably doesn't know every detail of the bike, or that any parts aren't original, especially a knock off part made to look original that may have been used in the past as a replacement for a damaged/worn original? I'm sure he's describing it to the best of his knowledge, after that it's the buyers responsibility to know his stuff and look at the photos/ask questions. people sure are bidding though!
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby debby » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:34 am

This guy is well known in the vintage Ducati community for misrepresenting bikes. His auctions always seem to bring top dollar too. Maybe some shill bidding going on. Definitely a case of Buyer Beware!

I suppose now he'll log on here and threaten to sue us all for defamation of character or something, like that guy from Chicago... :roll:
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Johnnymac » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:37 am

concours wrote:
Snorton74 wrote:I checked out those links to other forums. Sure seems like the same guy. How is his seller rating 100%? Good of you to put the word out. Only buy bikes in person!



That's one way to do it.... but the reality is, MOST of business today is at least in part, electronic. All depends on your own comfort level as a horse trader.


I bought my Combat sight unseen off of Craigslist... I rolled the dice and came up a winner. It could have easily gone the other way. -I think everyone understands this when buying something used ( and 40 years old) online.

That being said, well done to the OP for pointing out the things that aren't correct with this bike. You have a keen eye. Having never seen a Dunstal in person, I thought it looked perfect.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby speirmoor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:12 am

I asked the same question when this was posted in the classifieds section. I have never seen an original but whenever on shows up they're usually dismissed as not being original.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby illf8ed » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:09 pm

To be certain if this particulary machine was assembled by Dunstall, the factory records would have to show 202659 VIN as having been shipped to Dunstall. A potential buyer can check with VMCC or NOC to verify. I see many Nortons for sale that claim to be original with several anomolies.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Rohan » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:32 pm

concours wrote:747 transactions, 100% feedback score... and you guys are rat-packing him? .


100% ?? Only in the past 12 months...
Ebay only rates feedback on the past 12 months these days.

Have you actually looked at his feedback listings ?
Some red stars and a few sad stories listed with him.
Not bad, considering how much exotica he has done....

By eck, that looks like a Dunstall 810 Norton.
If it looks like, tastes and smells like one, it must be one ???
As someone said though, judging by how shiny it is, someone has been at it....

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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Snorton74 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:00 pm

concours wrote:
Snorton74 wrote:I checked out those links to other forums. Sure seems like the same guy. How is his seller rating 100%? Good of you to put the word out. Only buy bikes in person!



That's one way to do it.... but the reality is, MOST of business today is at least in part, electronic. All depends on your own comfort level as a horse trader.


Buy a bike for 10,000 w/o kicking the tires or the kick starter for that matter? You'll only have yourself to blame.
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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Rohan » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:20 pm

Snorton74 wrote:Buy a bike for 10,000 w/o kicking the tires or the kick starter for that matter? You'll only have yourself to blame.


In that market, where they only have to look good (to sit in an office or museum ?), that probably doesn't happen too often ? Good point though...

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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby BA10BOON » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:28 am

Snorton74 wrote:Buy a bike for 10,000 w/o kicking the tires or the kick starter for that matter? You'll only have yourself to blame.


Spot on mate. I think the OP is being a little over zealous, although there's nothing wrong with pointing out ebay items like this. The reality is, that if you did part with that amount of hard earned cash on ebay, then you get what you deserve anyway.
That's what bike dealers are for!

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Re: BEWARE – eBay auction for 1972 Norton DUNSTALL 810 MK 2

Postby Robert_Norton » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:31 pm

BA10BOON wrote:Spot on mate. I think the OP is being a little over zealous, although there's nothing wrong with pointing out ebay items like this. The reality is, that if you did part with that amount of hard earned cash on ebay, then you get what you deserve anyway.
That's what bike dealers are for!



Baboon,

Overzealous? I'm curious to know what you think would have been a more appropriate post.

After I decided to post an alert, I felt I should post a comprehensive list of all the details I thought didn't reconcile with the seller's claims about originality.

And I'm not sure why you feel eBay buyers getting ripped off is what they deserve for buying online, but I'd prefer if there was more discourse about suspect listings -- especially if it involves learning more of the minutiae about Nortons, parts, etc.



And on a tangentially related subject, there's currently another Norton eBay auction that looks suspect to me, and that's the MK III with the red, white, and blue paint scheme. The paint looks unlike any other red, white, blue job I've seen before (the curve of the blue stripe on the tank looks wrong). So with the owner claiming originality, and he really calls out the paint in his description, can you believe any of the other claims? Especially the claims about the mileage?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1975-Nor ... 325wt_1168

eBay auction #: 200806532998


And I know there were a lot of factory inconsistencies with this paint scheme, but if you look at the photo of the example on the still-crated bike in this thread, john-player-paint-scheme-t8304.html , you can see just how different it is. Narrower stripe, very different placement across the width in front of the gas cap, and the curve of the blue on the sides ...

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