Alternator Installation

Classic Norton Commando Motorcycles.

Re: Alternator Installation

Postby Ron L » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:17 pm

I purchased another Sparx for my '72 Fastback build (do I have a choice if I want more watts?)

Of course. Lucas RM24 3-phase (or just the 47244 or 47252 stator with a good Lucas rotor and a 3-phase Podtronics). Also, there is the Wassell version
http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=354
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby swooshdave » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:23 pm

RoadScholar wrote:SwooshDave be prepare to suffer for your choice of 3 phase power, but be advised that your choice is, ultimately, a good one.

RS


Don't you mean single phase?
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby plj850 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:09 pm

RoadScholar wrote:When I put my '75 together with the Sparx the rotor fit on the crank, and, separately the sleeved nut would thread down on the crank completely; additionally the sleeved nut would drop into the rotor, when it was off the crank. During assembly the sleeved nut would NOT tighten, but would bind about 1/2 way to its goal. I measured everything and found that the Sparx rotor's bore was done at a very slight angle. I was able to solve this problem with lapping compound. In reading more recent posts it is apparent that the Chinese manufacturer took many liberties with the spec, and that the US importer let this pass. I'd love to know who is importing the Sparx so that I could speak with them (please pass this on and I'll get right on it, if you know).---I have a Skype phone so it costs me peanuts to call anyplace on earth.

I purchased another Sparx for my '72 Fastback build (do I have a choice if I want more watts?) and already I see a problem, the key way in the rotor is not deep enough to acomodate the stock key height. I will solve this problem by fitting the key or by deepening the key way...a lot like fitting Andover Norton OE (?) parts :roll:

In fairness to the opium den manufacturers and the designers the system, once fitted, works very well.

SwooshDave be prepare to suffer for your choice of 3 phase power, but be advised that your choice is, ultimately, a good one.

RS


Its pretty important that the rotor is a correct fit since you do not want the clearance between the rotor and stator to close uo or your stator will be ripped off its mountings and as has been pointed out elsewhere this will happen very quickly and the all you will see is the alternator wires dissapear into the the primary chaincase..and mayhem will ensue :-(
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby RoadScholar » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:22 am

SwooshDAve,
I do mean 3 phase, that is what the Sparx is, the original Lucas is 2 phase.

RonL,
Thanks for the information, my next Norton will have one of the choices you mentioned; if you need a break I'll give you the address of the rock I live under...

RS
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby swooshdave » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:11 am

RoadScholar wrote:SwooshDAve,
I do mean 3 phase, that is what the Sparx is, the original Lucas is 2 phase.

RS


http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatalog/Alternators.html

I still don't know what you are talking about.

Sparx come in single phase (two wires) which is what I have and three phase (three wire). The original Lucas is single phase (two wires).

I'd be happy to be corrected.
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby plj850 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:25 pm

swooshdave wrote:
RoadScholar wrote:SwooshDAve,
I do mean 3 phase, that is what the Sparx is, the original Lucas is 2 phase.

RS


http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatalog/Alternators.html

I still don't know what you are talking about.

Sparx come in single phase (two wires) which is what I have and three phase (three wire). The original Lucas is single phase (two wires).

I'd be happy to be corrected.


Its a common mistake alternators are often called 2 wire or 3 wire or also single phase or three phase.... :D
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby plj850 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:31 pm

swooshdave wrote:Image
And now you can see why I was questioning the assembly of the alternator. Considering the parts I have you'd wonder too.

Image
Nut OD



Image
Crank OD

Rotor fits nicely on crank, so that's good. Rumor has it that the RGM belt kit comes with a rotor nut so we'll see if it fits better. 8)

Of course the belt kit will space the rotor out correctly.


Good to see you are sticking to imperial no metric nonsense :D :D
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby RoadScholar » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:46 pm

If you were to put an oscilloscope lead on a given alternator output wire you would see a single sine wave swinging equally from negative territory to positive territory above and below the 0 volt reference line. In a 1 wire alternator you would see a single sine wave, in a 2 wire alternator you would see two sine waves 180 degrees out of phase (two phase) and in a 3 wire alternator you would see three sine waves 120 degrees out of phase (three phase). The more phases you add the higher the average output current is, as long as you gang the phases and don't set them so that they cancel eachother. The rectifier cuts off the positive alternations (negative ground systems) or the negative alternations (negative ground systems) and the Zenner diode regulates the the maximun system voltage by acting as a variable resistor (resistors can be current limiting when hung bewteen a power source and a ground, or voltage limiting when put inline). Fortunately a number of manufacturers have given us the black box (silver box?) that does both the rectification and voltage regulation.

In the US it is common to refer to 110/120V (one hot) and 220/240V (two hot) systems as single phase and to refer to 208 (three hot) as three phase, it gives the tradsmen a common langauge, but is technically quite incorrect. 110/120 V power is single phase, 220/240 is two phase and 208 is three phase. The point of having these options in a supply setting is to give the consumer choices for lowering current flow, lower current flow translates to lower supply tempatures which means less fire danger, a good thing. Ohm's law E=IR, voltage equals current time resistance; the higher the voltage the lower the current.

These same conventions have carried over to motorcycles and cars. Call it symantics, if you like, but any way you cut it: 1 wire = single phase, 2 wires = two phase and 3 wires = three phase.

RS
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby swooshdave » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:43 pm

I stand corrected. I guess.

I still stand by that I have a two wire Sparx so it's either single or two phase, depending on how many drinks I've had as that seems to be the only standard I can trust.
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby batrider » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:10 pm

There is no such thing as a 1 wire alternator. There is a 2 wire alternator which is single phase. The 3 wire can be either 3 phase, or, if an older one, it can also be a single phase with the various windings switched by the lighting switch.
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby swooshdave » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:43 pm

batrider wrote:There is no such thing as a 1 wire alternator. There is a 2 wire alternator which is single phase. The 3 wire can be either 3 phase, or, if an older one, it can also be a single phase with the various windings switched by the lighting switch.


I only have one question, how do you wire the kill switch on a single wire alternator? :mrgreen:
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby DogT » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:54 pm

Personally I have never heard of a 1 wire AC circuit. There must be 2 wires for AC to work. There is single phase AC, split phase AC (both single phase and the split phase 180 deg. out of phase with each other with respect to common) and 3 phase which is a Y (star) or delta output with 3 wires and the current at 120 deg. out of phase with each wire. Each requires a separate rectifier circuit to produce DC for a battery charger.

But I am not going to get in the middle of this nor am I the expert.

Dave
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby plj850 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:14 pm

swooshdave wrote:I stand corrected. I guess.

I still stand by that I have a two wire Sparx so it's either single or two phase, depending on how many drinks I've had as that seems to be the only standard I can trust.


Look at the regulator/rectifier boxes available on the net you will see those with 2 yellow wires for single phase alternators and those with 3 yellow wires for three phase alternators ....http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatalog/Alternators.html

Cheers Paul
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby plj850 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:21 pm

DogT wrote:Personally I have never heard of a 1 wire AC circuit. There must be 2 wires for AC to work. There is single phase AC, split phase AC (both single phase and the split phase 180 deg. out of phase with each other with respect to common) and 3 phase which is a Y (star) or delta output with 3 wires and the current at 120 deg. out of phase with each wire. Each requires a separate rectifier circuit to produce DC for a battery charger.

But I am not going to get in the middle of this nor am I the expert.

Dave
69S


Many car sites discuss single wire alternators typically these have the regulatot/rectfier built in to the alternator and are connected to the engine block 'earth'.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/crowncabinetry/gm1wire.jpg

One last point the phrase positive or negative earth I do not actually like I prefer using ground in place of earth...which is technically more accurate.
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Re: Alternator Installation

Postby JimC » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:06 am

AC, DC, negative ground, positive ground, it still and always will require at least two conductors. Chassis ground may be one of the conductors, thus making a one wire circuit function. No such thing as a one conductor electrical circuit or device. As for the explanation of 220 volt AC being two phase, that is incorrect. It has two conductors with opposite polarities, but is in phase, hence single phase. Phase is timing, not polarity. With three phase AC there are three conductors with each conductor reaching maximum amplitude 120 degrees apart.
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