Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Classic Norton Commando Motorcycles.

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby britbike220 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:52 am

fredful wrote:I got this one made about twelve years ago by a gentle man called Bernie Willet, a copy of the proddy racer and a real work of art as needed for running straight methanol. Unfortunately He was in poor health back then and I havent seen or heard of him for many years.
There is a chap Called Paul in Ringwood vic that has been setting up for the last couple of years to make alloy tanks and what I have seen they are of very good quality, The manx ridden to victory by Cam Donald at the Phillip island classics was equipped with one of Pauls tanks.
PM me and I will get his number.
Freddy.

Image

Image


Much, much nicer looking than the interstate version
User avatar

britbike220
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: princeton Illinois

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby swooshdave » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:43 am

The alloy tank I have came from Walridge and I believe the tank was made by Bartel. The quality is ok. The gas cap was glued on crooked. But otherwise it's acceptable.

Image
User avatar

swooshdave
Posts: 7783
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:53 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby hudson29 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:39 am

Tintin wrote:Why? To have some months during which the Ethanol eats its way thru the aluminium before it attacks the GRP?


Ethanol eats aluminum? I had not heard this before. Are you quite sure? What about pot metal like many carbs are made of?
Paul, SoCal
1961 Matchless G80CS, long term cafe funster project
1966 Triumph Bonneville, long term resto project
1972 Norton Commando, retro custom
1978 SR500, mostly stock
1990 Honda GB500, mostly stock
1991 Suzuki VX800, mostly stock
User avatar

hudson29
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:13 pm
Location: Fullerton, SoCal

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby Carbonfibre » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:53 am

Tintin wrote:
Carbonfibre wrote:His stuff isnt on the same level as that from the "Tank Shop"..................that is unless they have started doing MotoGp tanks recently?


Sorry, but transfering racing know-how to real world problems can easily backfire. I don't know exactly how MotoGP people handle fluids in their bikes but I doubt that this is very different from F1 and that I know very well because I've been involved with all kinds of fluids in them. That includes E10 fuels as F1 switched to them a few years ago and we did a lot of testing in back then regarding all the known problems with this. An F1 car needs to have a fuel cell (aka bladder) made to FIA FT5 spec and AFAIK this is also the case with MotoGP if they choose to run composite fuel tanks. Given the safety benefits of a carbon fire outer hull combined with an almost literally bullet-proof FT5 bladder I find it very surprising to hear that any of them is running a simple foam-filled alloy fuel tank. But even if that is they case I strongly assume that the don't leave the fuel in there for much longer than some hours on race weekends and tests - which means that the corrosive process of Ethanol which from what I've seen on test can already start at E10 ethanol levels simply is not an issue for the one or two years a MotoGP tank is used - actually I'd be surprised if they don't come with a rather restrictive lifing limit of a few kiloklicks, especially if they were made from aluminium and be exposed to the vibration levels seen on a MotoGP bike.

So whilst a MotoGP tank is obviously a very dedicated high-tech piece of equipment the requirements don't have much to do with what a normal motorcycle needs.


There are very few carbon MotoGP tanks, as the cost of replacing them after only very minor damage is considerable, and weight of the carbon tank and required bladder is higher than 1mm aluminum which is what most are made from currently. The point here being that anyone with the skill to make a 1mm MotoGp tank, can easily use the self same skills to make a road bike tank, out of thicker material.

Finally in point of fact MotoGp tanks may be used for a lot longer than a couple of years, and are often repaired and rebuilt for further use after pretty serious impact damage. This is possible with alloy tanks, but will mean a carbon tank is beyond economical repair, and has to be replaced.


Tim

Carbonfibre
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby hobot » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:10 am

Report on mechanism of ethanol on Al and fiberglass. Al has both chemical oxidation issue with ethanol over 10% and corrosion by battery action currents.
Phytates in resin is said to be the weakness in fg tanks.
http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/Cab ... _Paper.doc
Throw yourself at the ground and miss!
User avatar

hobot
Posts: 14134
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:59 pm
Location: Arkansas, Dixieland

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby hudson29 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:49 am

hobot wrote:Report on mechanism of ethanol on Al and fiberglass. Al has both chemical oxidation issue with ethanol over 10% and corrosion by battery action currents.
Phytates in resin is said to be the weakness in fg tanks.
http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/Cab ... _Paper.doc


Thanks for this, it is an eye opener for those of us who had hopes of evading problems by going to the extra expense of an AL tank. Many older cars have a lot of copper & brass in the Fuel system. I have a 1926 Hudson that has a brass carb and had thought it safe for ever. Now I'm not so sure . . .
Paul, SoCal
1961 Matchless G80CS, long term cafe funster project
1966 Triumph Bonneville, long term resto project
1972 Norton Commando, retro custom
1978 SR500, mostly stock
1990 Honda GB500, mostly stock
1991 Suzuki VX800, mostly stock
User avatar

hudson29
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:13 pm
Location: Fullerton, SoCal

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby Carbonfibre » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:19 pm

Strangely that report doesn't touch upon the far more serious problems caused when bio diesel is used in aluminum tanks, and in common with the Boat US report also fails to clarify that properly made composite tanks will work perfectly well with E fuels!

Carbonfibre
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby Webby03 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:31 pm

Another supplier of alloy tanks http://www.tabclassics.com/index.php

Webby

Webby03
Posts: 456
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:32 am
Location: Near Brussels, Belgium

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby Webby03 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:33 pm

Or if you want a seat unit (also in Wales) http://www.tvbcraft.com/home.html

Webby03
Posts: 456
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:32 am
Location: Near Brussels, Belgium

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby 79x100 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:39 pm

Carbonfibre wrote:Strangely that report doesn't touch upon the far more serious problems caused when bio diesel is used in aluminum tanks, and in common with the Boat US report also fails to clarify that properly made composite tanks will work perfectly well with E fuels!


Perhaps they couldn't find a properly made one to test ? The composites industry and it's users haven't exactly covered themselves in glory since the days when they were trying to convince us that glass fibre was going to change the world.
1975 850 MkIII
1939 WD16H
Compulsive tinkerer.
User avatar

79x100
Posts: 1605
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:25 pm
Location: Flanders/ UK if there's a jumble on.

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby Carbonfibre » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:37 pm

That may well be the case.............but maybe the fact that fuel storage tanks at many filling stations are GRP, should provide those suggesting GRP tanks are not suitable for this purpose with food for thought?

Carbonfibre
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby shrugger » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:54 pm

Not any more. Some may recall a few years back, all the stations were digging up thier tanks.
Those that couldn't afford it closed down or got bought by *gasp* BP!

Now this really puts a damper on things. I was not aware of the aluminum problem.
72 Combat Roadster
70 T120R Bonneville
"Thanks to denial, I'm immortal" -Phillip J. Fry
User avatar

shrugger
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:37 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby Carbonfibre » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:13 pm

shrugger wrote:Not any more. Some may recall a few years back, all the stations were digging up thier tanks.
Those that couldn't afford it closed down or got bought by *gasp* BP!

Now this really puts a damper on things. I was not aware of the aluminum problem.


Interesting information..............I guess that means that composite fuel storage tanks dont have UL approval now then? Wonder if you could point us towards further details of the approval being withdrawn?

Carbonfibre
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby JimC » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:39 pm

I'm somewhat skeptical about the effects of ethanol on aluminum tanks. I live on the east coast of Florida. Big boat area. Since the gas began having ethanol added, many boats with fiberglass fuel tanks have been replaced with aluminum tanks. I heard of nary a problem with the aluminum tanks and ethanol fuel. My BMW K75 has a stock aluminum tank. Recently, I had to replace an "O" ring at the bottom of the tank, ethanol related, I suppose. I carefully inspected the inside of the tank. No sign of any deterioration. My 72 Combat has an aluminum tank which has posed no problems in two years. When I faced the decision of whether to line my glass Norton tank, replace with steel or replace with aluminum, I chose the aluminum because of the steel's rusting problem. I have absolutely no regrets. Neither do any of those boat owners I mentioned.
A man's worth is not measured by what he has achieved...It is measured by what he went through to achieve it.

If you smile every time you flip on the garage light, you own the right motorcycle.

JimC
Posts: 1737
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:23 pm
Location: Port St. John, FL

Re: Alloy fuel tanks for Norton

Postby britbike220 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:52 pm

Sorry, I don't buy the concern for aluminum tanks and gas issues and if there is a concern it would take so long for gas to deteriorate an aluminum bike tank that it basically becomes a non issue.
User avatar

britbike220
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: princeton Illinois

PreviousNext

Return to Norton Commando Classic Motorcycles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1up3down, flashbackk, Jerry Doe, JimC, jps_lotus73, Nater_Potater, Nielsen, SBell, snakehips and 5 guests