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Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Modern 961 Norton Commando Motorcycles

Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby BritTwit » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:52 am

pingu-nz wrote:
BritTwit wrote:Paul,

Any problems with the anodized bolts that you used to replace the rocker cover breather banjos?
Did you loctite them in place?
Are they free of leaks?


No problems
They look great no leaks
You have to remove the cover to install them
And they screw into the existing nuts used for the banjo bolts

And whilst in there
Torque head nuts
Check tappet clearance

Far better option that the plastic bungs supplied by Norton

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/M14x1-5-BLAC ... 2749.l2649

cheers
Paul


Thanks for the link.
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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby BritTwit » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:44 am

Some info and a thought:

I took my 961CR for a brief ride today. The bike hadn’t been ridden or started for about 5 weeks.
I carefully checked the oil pressure light as the engine cranked and then started. Only one crank required.
The light stayed illuminated for 3 quick Mississippi’s before going dark.
So it took approximately 3 seconds for the oil pump to pressurize the system after a long period of inactivity.
I guess the engine does need some time to get the pressure up if all of the oil is in the crankcase.

That also made me think about the other effects of starting an engine that has a full crankcase of oil.
On old 750/850 Nortons, if you start the motor that has wetsumped, the spinning crank actually forces oil out of the oil filled case into the breather and can cause a mess.
The force of the crank spinning can also produce pressure and blow out the oil seal between the engine and primary.
I wonder now if the real cause for the 961’s with oil in the airbox, is simply the wetsumping over time as the oil from the oil tank migrates down into the sump.
When the bike starts and the crank spins it can pressurize the oil in the case and possibly force the oil up through the breather into the airbox.
I can image with with all the oil in the case the squirt that is pushed to the airbox has be one big gulp!
Maybe the fix that Is needed to prevent oil in airbox (OIA) problem is just the check valves in the Breather Fix Kit to prevent or reduce the rate of migration of oil into the engine sump.

Wasn’t it Paul (member pingu-nz) who had the breather kit installed with the rocker cover banjos capped off, and he was still getting oil in his airbox.
This must be excess oil in the crankcase pushed out by the spinning crank.

Just a thought.
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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby BPHORSEGUY » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:43 pm

Tony has alluded to the same situation!

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby pingu-nz » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:05 pm

Gents

With the upgrade comes non return valves ,so this should stop any chance of wet sumping .

Whats more frustrating I took the bike out for 100 km ride over the weekend and not a drop of oil in the catch bottle.

But on the bright side , the power commander has transformed the bike .
better fuel economy , consistent idle ,pleasure to ride :lol:

cheers
Paul

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby BritTwit » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:33 am

pingu-nz wrote:Whats more frustrating I took the bike out for 100 km ride over the weekend and not a drop of oil in the catch bottle.


Paul,

This is good news, and would make sense if the oil check valves work effectively.
If the oil level in the tank remains consistent between rides, it means no oil, or very little oil has migrated to the sump.
So on starting there will be very little oil in crankcase for crankshaft to push through the breather into the airbox.

However, If the check valves leak just a tiny bit, and almost all do, after an extended period of sitting the oil tank contents will eventually find its way into the sump.
Then, on startup the crank will once again push oil into the airbox.

Check valve solutions to wetsumping have been used for years on old 750/850 Nortons with varying levels of success.
The only check valves that work 100% are the manually operated ball type valves.
They are manually closed by the rider after engine shutdown to prevent wetsumping from the oil tank.
The problem is that some forget to open the valves before restarting the engine. The old Nortons have no oil pressure warning light.
Then you can have massive engine damage it the engine is operated with no oil pressure.

If the new check valves are working you should be able to read the oil dipstick at shutdown, and then again before your next ride.
The levels should be exactly the same.
This is what I will test after I have the breather kit installed on my 961 next week.

It's a pity really, a wet sump engine design would have prevented all of this unnecessary trouble.

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby LEXngton » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:28 pm

Will be receiving my 2016 Commando 961 this week but I'll be servicing it myself (and my mechanic) as there are no Norton dealerships around here. Where can I purchase the Breather Fix Kit? Sounds like I'm going to need it.

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby richard-7 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:33 am

2016 will come with it. You're good.
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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby LEXngton » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:17 am

richard-7 wrote:2016 will come with it. You're good.


Ah thanks Richard! That's a relief to know that. Your help & the help in general from all the Access Norton members is an invaluable resource to those of us who are unfortunate as to not have a dealership to work on our bikes. So many thanks!

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby pingu-nz » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:36 am

pingu-nz wrote:Gents

With the upgrade comes non return valves ,so this should stop any chance of wet sumping .

Whats more frustrating I took the bike out for 100 km ride over the weekend and not a drop of oil in the catch bottle.

But on the bright side , the power commander has transformed the bike .
better fuel economy , consistent idle ,pleasure to ride :lol:

cheers
Paul


Update

Weekend ride 250 km , 4 stops ,catchbottle empty every stop, 5 km form home there is a twisty road which has a 25%-35% downgrade for approximately 2 km . Now , within 1 km after the downgrade the catchbottle has puked everywhere, this is the only similar conditions that it has happened.
So with the deceleration and the forward angle is all the oil going to the front of the tank and when on flat ground again is it gulping oil to the pump which it cant circulate back to the tank, then forcing it through the breather ??

Which also could mean the bike is starving of oil on deceleration down the hill .
Yes oil level is half way up the dipstick, and no the oil light didnt come on .

thoughts ??

cheers
Paul

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby nopdog » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:31 am

Paul
Mines the same ride 50ks stop, oil bottle empty, ride another 50ks still empty. Fill up with fuel still empty ride 5ks home oil bottle overflowing. If the bottle hold 50mls then it puked 100mls.
And I can't see how that's wetsumping/drainback after 100km and if it is why isn't the oil pump pumping it back into the frame. If it's wetsumping/drainback whilst running it's a design fault or a faulty pressure relief valve. (dose it have one)
Don't get me wrong I'M IN FOR THE LONG HAUL and will do anything to sort it out.
I'm thinking of bypassing the bottle and putting the oil over the rear chain like the rest of my British bikes.
Simon

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Re: Airbox oil fix and ecu upgrade

Postby pingu-nz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:24 am

nopdog wrote:Paul
Mines the same ride 50ks stop, oil bottle empty, ride another 50ks still empty. Fill up with fuel still empty ride 5ks home oil bottle overflowing. If the bottle hold 50mls then it puked 100mls.
And I can't see how that's wetsumping/drainback after 100km and if it is why isn't the oil pump pumping it back into the frame. If it's wetsumping/drainback whilst running it's a design fault or a faulty pressure relief valve. (dose it have one)
Don't get me wrong I'M IN FOR THE LONG HAUL and will do anything to sort it out.
I'm thinking of bypassing the bottle and putting the oil over the rear chain like the rest of my British bikes.
Simon


Simon
I was starting to think my bike was the only one that did this ,
I have removed the the catch bottle and will go back to the old method of plugging the pipe and draining the air box after every ride .
I wouldn't divert to the chain because it will make a bloody mess and oil the chains of the next 10 bikes behind you :lol: :lol:
I have emailed Kevin at Norton and waiting for a reply .
I am thinking about diverting the air box drain back to the air/oil separator so any oil in the air box will end up back into the sump , the oil is clean oil not milky white blow by.
i will keep you posted

cheers
Paul

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