Norton Dominator 99 problems

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

Hello,

I took power to the main bulb with straight wire from power box (so all the power produced would go only to the bulb and everything else was bypassed) and it was still dim, having still low voltage.

I have already ordered new rec/reg and hope that fixes the problem. I also did take little bit time at windows paint and modified wiring diagram to suit me. I'll add pic to this post

What do you think will that work?

The key switch is basically on/off switch with key that you can remove when switch is at off position. It has 4 leads, only 2 are connected when off position and when on position all 4 are connected together.

I also intended to use normal 12v relay to control magneto cut off wire. Idea is that when key switch is at OFF position the relay does not have current so the magneto cut off is active(cut off wire is grounded, no spark) and when you turn key switch to ON position relay gets current and cut of wire is no longer grounded(spark).

I also wanted to leave manual dip switch to the cut off wire, so if my battery has drained i can use manual dip switch to get the bike running.

Here is pic of the relay


Tell me your opinion about the diagram and if i should change it somehow.

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

texasSlick said:

My Atlas had same lighting switch as that in your posted wiring diagram.

I say had, because I experienced the same sort of lighting problem as you are having, only mine was of the intermittent type, and I replaced the switch with two rocker type switches to make the same switch function.

I traced the problem to the "rocker and roller" mechanical parts of the switch. There was poor contact, causing the same loss of voltages as you are having. The first time this occurred was most inconvenient .... in the middle of the night, in the middle of Kansas, forcing me to sleep on the prairie.

The switch has two functions: 1) to control lighting, and 2) to control a 3 wire alternator for low, medium, and high output. With an electronic regulator, you do not need function 2). Try this: temporarily jumper the two alternator wires
to the yellow wires of the power box (as LAB states, it does not matter which way). If this temporary arrangement solves your problem, the fault is in the lighting switch, not the regulator.

Slick

PS .... you might also jumper the NP wire to the U wire, to test if the switch is making good contact internally.

Click to expand...

I could try this out too? But what do you mean where i should jump alternator wires to? Alternator wires are normally connected to the yellow wires of the power box.

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

KuusistoNorton said:

I could try this out too? But what do you mean where i should jump alternator wires to? Alternator wires are normally connected to the yellow wires of the power box.

Click to expand...

If your bike is like wiring diagram you first posted, alternator wires go first to light switch, then to power box. If so, make the test. If your alternator wires go directly to power box, as you show in the second wiring diagram you posted, then you can ignore this test.

You can try jumper of NP wire to U wire. That test will tell us the light switch does not have fault in main feed.

Can you make your revised wiring diagram larger? I do see a problem with the earth circuit of the magneto. I will comment more after I can see larger diagram.

Slick

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

Aaa okay now i got it, yes i have never had alternator wires going first to the light switch. I think i have little bit differend light switch than in the first wiring diagram since i dont seem to have that rocker system attached to it, not sure if the switch is completely differend or if maybe PO has modified this lightning switch.

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

Hello, here:

http://imgur.com/a/m03pq

Dont know if thats any larger but then i'll try this:

Its a screenshot closer from the magneto earth circuit, hope this helps. It might be that relay coil earth is drawn wrong kind like its inside the relay.

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

I found one tutorial how i could test my rec/reg box with multimeter diode function. I need to try it out to the power box.

Heres the tutorial:

"To test the rectifier, you will need to disconnect all of the wires and turn your multimeter to the diode function. First, check the positive diode. To do this, place the positive lead into the positive diode. Then connect the negative lead to each of the stator inputs. The meter should not read anything on any of these. If that checks out, connect the negative lead to the positive diode and connect the positive lead to each of the stator inputs. The meter should now be reading something. The numbers are not important.
Repeat the process for the negative diode. This time you should get a reading with the positive lead connected to the negative diode while connecting the negative lead to the stator inputs. With the negative lead connected to the negative diode, the meter should not read anything while connecting the positive lead to the stator inputs.
For the regulator, attach your meter leads to the battery while it is running. It should not read higher than 14.5 volts and no lower than 13.5 volts. If it is higher, the battery will be over charged and if it is lower, the battery will continue to drain as the bike runs.
If these tests do not check out, you will need a new regulator/rectifier."

When im testing it do i have to connect both(two) alternator inputs to the negative lead or just one of them at time?

Edit: i watched video tutorial and now i got it. Atleast on 3phase alternator you need to check every phase seperately, but on 1 phase alternator since theres only 1 i dont think it matters.

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

Hello,

I did the diode test and i believe this shows me that the power box really is broken. I made the test and referring to the tutorial i posted earlier these are the results.
Here i am testing NEGATIVE OUTPUT, on multimeter Negative lead is connected to the output and positive lead to alternator input. This should show OL this way.

First one was ok, then change Positive lead to another alternator input wire

This was not OL it was 0.000-0.001V

Still checking the NEGATIVE OUTPUT, just changed multimeter Positive lead to negative output and Negative lead to alternator input. This should show numbers now.

This is ok, its supposed to measure close to 0,520V. Then changed Negative lead to another alternator input wire.

Not ok, this should also measure close to 0,520V.

Then its time to check POSITIVE OUTPUT. I have connected multimeter Positive lead to output and Negative lead to input, again this way it should show OL.

This shows ok, then changed Negative lead to another alternator input.

This is also ok. Next i changed Negative lead to POSITIVE OUTPUT and Positive lead to alternator wire input, this should show close to 0,520V.

However it was showing -1,108V and went down to 0V and climbed up to 0,491V

It shows its ok, since its close to 0,520V but i dont know since it started from -1,108V and slowly went to 0,491V. I understood that it should be instantly close to 0,520V. After this i changed Positive lead to another alternator input.

It was ok, straight 0,520V.

After this one i measured POSITIVE OUTPUT again using Positive lead connected to output and Negative lead to alternator input. Again this should show OL both alternator leads, however it did not.

It started here, climbed up all the way to 2V and then it was OL. I measured another lead aswell

It started here and also climbed up to 2V before changing to OL.

NEGATIVE OUTPUT side did not act like this. I dont know for sure if that positive side should act like that or not but anyway one negative output measurement did not give 0,520V so the rectifier is not functioning propely. The regulator side might be ok, or that may be broken too, cant tell for sure, but they are in same box so only choice is to replace it with new Rec/Reg.

I hope i would get that new Rec/Reg by tomorrow so i could re-wire my bike upcoming weekend.

Slick did you find some problems in my wiring diagram?

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

Regarding magneto kill circuit.

This may only be an issue of improper schematics. Your magneto cut off switch is drawn as a normally open pushbutton (NOPB). I first supposed this to be the factory handle bar mounted switch. If so, the circuit will not work as you wish.

If the NOPB is replaced with a single pole single throw switch (SPST), the circuit will work as you wish, including an override in case of a flat battery.

With a different choice of key switch contact arrangement, the relay and SPST switch can be eliminated, resulting in a simpler, less bulky, and failure prone arrangement.

If you choose a key switch with double pole double throw (DPDT) contacts, then connect one pole of the key switch to the magneto (at the knurled nut on the magneto points cover), and the throw to earth, the magneto will be killed either by turning the key switch to OFF, or with the handlebar PB. Turning the key switch to ON will open the earth circuit, and regardless if the battery is flat, allow starting.

The second pole of the key switch should interrupt the negative feed to the battery when OFF. This will prevent drain of the battery should there be a fault somewhere, or prevent drain if someone were to turn on light switch.

I hope you resolve the charge issue with the above test.

PM me if you wish a schematic of what I have described.

Slick

Re: Norton Dominator 99 problem?

Hello,

Sorry my bad. Magneto cut-off switch is changed to SPST type switch, there is no NOPB type switch anymore fitted to handlebar, i changed it because one day i was riding and suddenly engine cutted off. It did not start and i wiggled NOPB switch and it started but after few miles it grounded again and engine cutted off again. I threw it away and replaced it with SPST switch and no problems since.

I like the idea using DPDT key switch, but im not sure if im able to find one. Or is it used in most motorcycles? PARK-OFF-ON settings?

EDIT: Seems to be that ignition key has more functions than DPDT keyswitch. Im wondering what position you can remove the key in DPDT key switch? Is it in all positions, or only OFF position.

If the key can only be removed at OFF-position then magneto will not be grounded when im not riding it(key in pocket) So it could be started without key fitted.(but like who knows this)

It would work if the key could be removed at any position then there would be no problems. I dont have that kind of switch right now so i dont know how the key removal works.(of course most ideal function would be that key could only be removed at 1position that would be when magneto is grounded but its most likely not being that)

The key switch that i was planning to put there now is only OFF-ON switch and you can remove key only at OFF-position. (4 poles, 2 are connected together internally at OFF-position and ON-position all 4 poles are connected together internally.)

I am having trouble understanding function of switch you intend to use ..... that is, all terminals connected with switch ON confuses me. Can you show schematic or state OFF terminals x,y connected, ON terminals x,z connected, etc.

Here is a switch that will do magneto kill: https://www.alliedelec.com/nkk-switches ... /70192887/

It is SPST.

Slick

texasSlick said:

I am having trouble understanding function of switch you intend to use ..... that is, all terminals connected with switch ON confuses me. Can you show schematic or state OFF terminals x,y connected, ON terminals x,z connected, etc.

Here is a switch that will do magneto kill: https://www.alliedelec.com/nkk-switches ... /70192887/

It is SPST.

Slick

Click to expand...

Hello Slick,

I am sorry for my poor presentation. I dont know the actual schematic of the switch but i did research and i would say its Double pole single throw(DPST) switch.

Im using my phone mainly when i am writing here so only pics i can give you right now is my drawings on paper.

I havent been familiar with switches before until now, so im not the best guy describe the function. What i have ment is that when i use my multimeters audible continuity set up, i have 2 terminals that have continuity connection when switch is at OFF- position. When its turned to ON-position all 4 terminals are like connected together internally, i can get audible sound between each terminal at ON-position. So the switch has total of 4 terminals where i can attach wires to.

If i would say that there is terminals 1, 2, 3 and 4 . Switch OFF position 1-2 are only connected internally, switch ON position 1-2-3-4 are connected together internally.
Heres pic of the switch(DPST) i would think it is. Not sure what idea of the dotted line, but ill attach modded pic how my key switch works.



Ill also draw little bit of the bikes wirings on paper:
OFF-position

Heres ON-position:
Hope i have drawn it right..

Im sorry Slick, hope this helps.

OK .... dotted line indicates that the throws (the lines that join the terminals 1-4, & 2-3) move together.

Is the red line internal to the Switch? Can the red line be separated from terminals 1-4? If can be separated, then switch is true DPST.
If internally connected, the switch is likely a SPDT, but not drawn as such.

In lieu of a DPDT key switch, you will need a relay to do the functions you wish. The relay you have selected to ground the magneto is gross overkill at 20 amps. Grounding the magneto will require at most 1 amp.

If i were to install a key switch for anti theft purpose, I would use a SPST switch, using one throw to ground the magneto, and the other throw open. If i could find a DPDT keyswitch, then I would add the battery isolation circuit.

Slick

Hello,

You cannot seperate red line from terminals 1-4.

About the relay, i bought from general store and thats just universal relay.

Im not so familiar these either but isnt the amps mentioned on relay are the max amps it can handle?

I think i might could be able to find something like 12v 10A or 12v 5A relays from electrics shop. But this one could been solved by making this system more bulky and adding much smaller fuse than 20A to the wire going to relay.

What kind of relay would be ideal Slick? Ill try to find one today.

Have a look here: http://www.aoservices.co.uk/info/index.html

Al Osborne is the electricity-guru of the NOC.

Fritz

The source given by Fritz has a magneto key switch available! It should be just what you need!

Check it out.

Slick

Hello,

I checked it out, but i dont know if im bothered to order it all the way from uk.

I have troubles finding capable rec/reg from finland, every other bike have 3phase alternators and havent found single phase yet.

I would not really like to order rec/reg from uk either. I have shopping list made of parts etc. That i'll order at the same time in winter.

The one rec/reg i was talking about earlier came up with out of stock so i had to cancel that order.

Edit: i was even thinking about making my own rec/reg out of diodes but i dont now what kind of diodes i should have to make one. And not sure how durable it would be, since it could heat up fast and with poor cooling probably brake sooner or later.

Edit 2: i called local motorcycle parts dealer and he told me he can order aftermarket regulators meant for snowmobiles, and for little research many snowmobiles have single phase alternators. These aftermarket ones are capable up to 200w so i hope that'll work out for me. And it was pretty cheap, so we'll see how long it will last if it works.

Hello,

Someone has tested many differend Lucas alternators, here:

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/157398820/Testing-Lucas-Alternators-Aug-2013

Theres tables below of AC currents with 1ohm resistor and without load etc. I compared my alternators AC readings without load and i would say alternator is okay. Dont known if i try to make 1ohm resistor and test it with it.

Since this Lucas RM21 alternator should be rated 10amps, is the 10amps max. amps alternator can produce? Or will it push more than 10amps higher revs and at idle under 10amps? If i measure voltage with 1ohm resistor and would get 12volts AC it would mean there is 12amps also.

If the amps get higher than 10 at some points, why is it stated as 10A alternator? Is it the highest output amp what the alternator can produce without damaging it or what

Sorry for these stupid questions, i want to know how this stuff works and why. Also i have never had alternator or rec/reg problems earlier with any bike i have dealt with so this is kind of new.

Also im starting studying electrics this fall along with work, so its good for me to get known with these stuff.

I was still open to make my own rectifier/regulator, so i searched through the internet and found one good looking tutorial how to make one. But it was for 3-phase alternator.
Here is the schematics of it.

I modified it little bit to suit my single phase alternator:

Here, so what do you think, could that work as a Rectifier/Regulator?

Components that would be used are listed below:

1. Diode bridge 35A ( KBPC3510 ) 1pc
2. Zener Diode 13V ( BZX55C13 ) 1pc
3. Triac BTA26-600 1pc
4. Resistors 300ohms 5Watt 2pcs
5. Capacitor 1000pF 1pc
6. IC Darlington Array ULN2003A DIP16 1pc

And of wource some wires etc. It would be attached to heat sink made out of aluminium and finally casted to epoxy addhesive.

Zener diode would 13v instead of 14v that is marked to the schematic.

Also using thermal paste assembling certain components.

If this setup would work, it would be atleast cheap to make.

This is a loaded question, and not easy to answer by someone who is not an auto electrician
Re: “Since this Lucas RM21 alternator should be rated 10amps, is the 10amps max. amps alternator can produce? Or will it push more than 10amps higher revs and at idle under 10amps? If I measure voltage with 1ohm resistor and would get 12volts AC it would mean there is 12amps also. If the amps get higher than 10 at some points, why is it stated as 10A alternator? Is it the highest output amp what the alternator can produce without damaging it or what?”
From the way you ask this question you appear to want/expect more power from an alternator – I can tell you it will not happened on the standard Lucas alternator for example, a 10 amp output is just that, but hang on a minute, NOTHING works at 100% efficiency all the time, this might produce 10 amps for the first 10-20 minutes or so, then lose 25% of its power- or it will burn itself out.
The website posted earlier makes interesting reading;

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/15739 ... s-Aug-2013

Also the MORE powerful the alternator- the more power it will absorb from the engine to power it on max output- it’s the old swings and roundabout logic.

Hello,

I was mainly asking because im not that familiar with alternators and wanted to get known with them better. There is no intention to get more power or anything out of my alternator.

Now i have understood it in the best case it can produce 10amps output, no more but lost likely under 10amps.

I think my alternator will do just fine if its just capable to keep my battery charged.

What comes to the homemade rectifier/regulator, i have discussed with my co-worker who's electrical engineer with +40years of experience with industry electrics. He agreed that setup might just work out fine, luckily he has external power supply at home so we can test it out without attaching it to the bike itself.

We can feed AC current with the external power supply to the home made rectifier/regulator and see if its functioning propely and whats the output etc.

I'll try to gather the components needed to the rec/reg soon as possible and once its tested i'll keep you informed about the results.