I, of course, being the FNG trying to learn and get my father's bike back on the road!
Hey, you guys use the term 'slide'. Even the manuals themselves use the term 'slides'... but the damned authors never once identify what it is they MEAN with the term! Please correct me if wrong... my ASSumption is that the term means either the air valve OR the throttle valve... or BOTH??

ANyway, more fng questions, having removed the carbs last night.

1.) hell of a time getting a solid bite with the allen key to remove the manifolds to the head. It would appear that I'll need to shave a good 1/4" in order to sink the key solidly into the bolt, rather than only getting a 'piece' of the bolt with the key, and scared it'd strip out. Is this a given? To remove some of the key? As is, the key is still a little to long to fit in correctly.

(nasty looking crap in there from failed tank sealer. I've some pics, but can't post as I'm now at work. Looks like the epoxy/resin went through the carbs pretty much as I expected)

2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?

3.) I presume I need to order a carb 'kit' PER carb? As in TWO kits?

Suprising to me, was that the carbs actually looked MUCH nicer than I expected them to. I can see resin crap (whether from failed tank or dried fuel I'll probably never know for sure). I'm thinking now that had I used fresh fuel and clean plugs, she'd probably have fired up, asuming I had everything else ready.

4.) My assumption for the QUICKEST remedy to a wet sump (just to test if she'd start up) would be simply drain/remove all the oil, as per an oil change? (I'm following threads on venting the case, etc, for 'down-the-road' things to do).

5.) I was expecting the 'O' ring between the manifolds and the carb (per Clymer's), but there was also a gasket...?? Book didn't mention it??

TIA, Gary

P.S. that air filter is nasty! K & N, I believe, as in 'KaN' it be cleaned in anyway, or must it be replaced?

Gary wrote:Hey, you guys use the term 'slide'. Even the manuals themselves use the term 'slides'... but the damned authors never once identify what it is they MEAN with the term! Please correct me if wrong... my ASSumption is that the term means either the air valve OR the throttle valve... or BOTH??

Normally, when "slide" is mentioned, it is generally the throttle slide that is being referred to:

http://www.surreycycles.com/carb_01.htm
http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/AmalExplodedI ... ares=true#

When reference is made to the choke slide, then people will normally say 'choke slide'.

Gary wrote:1.) hell of a time getting a solid bite with the allen key to remove the manifolds to the head. It would appear that I'll need to shave a good 1/4" in order to sink the key solidly into the bolt, rather than only getting a 'piece' of the bolt with the key, and scared it'd strip out. Is this a given? To remove some of the key? As is, the key is still a little to long to fit in correctly.

Cut the key down. That will be your first Norton 'special tool'.

Gary wrote:2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?

I think it is probably residue from the fuel?

Gary wrote:3.) I presume I need to order a carb 'kit' PER carb? As in TWO kits?

Yes.

Gary wrote:4.) My assumption for the QUICKEST remedy to a wet sump (just to test if she'd start up) would be simply drain/remove all the oil, as per an oil change? (I'm following threads on venting the case, etc, for 'down-the-road' things to do).

Drain the old oil from the sump, and either tip it back into the oil tank, or preferably, fill the tank with fresh oil, but don't fill it any higher than the low mark on the dipstick at first. Only do the final topping up after the engine has been run for a few minutes.

Gary wrote:5.) I was expecting the 'O' ring between the manifolds and the carb (per Clymer's), but there was also a gasket...?? Book didn't mention it??

I would only expect to find the thick insulating gaskets at the head to manifold joints, and O-rings between the manifolds and carbs, but an extra gasket isn't going to do any harm.

Gary wrote:that air filter is nasty! K & N, I believe, as in 'KaN' it be cleaned in anyway, or must it be replaced?

K&Ns can be cleaned, so it's up to you.

1) There are a couple of places where "modified" Allen keys are needed, and you found one of them. Saw, grind, file, bend to fit. Keep it in your toolbox, you'll use it again.

2) Oil in the carb I would suspect came from the oil tank breather spewing oil into the air cleaner. Overfilling the oil tank results in excess oil blowing out that way. Can't think of any other direction it could come from.

3) Kits come both singly and in pairs, read the fine print when you order. Personally I'd just clean what you have profusely and reassemble. A pair of gaskets is recommended though.

4) Oil in the carb isn't a sign of wet sumping. The bike kinda needs to be running before you can judge that. Installing the breather check valve (per recent threads here) would be a good idea but don't go nuts on this.

5) Not a factory fitment. I use the o-ring and a smear of RTV on that joint.

Air filter disposition depends on exactly what you have. Factory air box, modified, etc.

I'd wonder if what looked like oil in the carb could be fuel spoiled by age and perhaps contaminaed by melting resin?
On those allens I like to start them with my cut down allen wrench and then use a ball end allen or if I don't have that a flat bladed screw driver that just fits it.

Cookie wrote:On those allens I like to start them with my cut down allen wrench and then use a ball end allen or if I don't have that a flat bladed screw driver that just fits it.

I ground a ball end onto my special carb Allen key, so that I can spin the screws most of the way in or out with the ball end!

Gary wrote:
2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?
TIA, Gary

Is it possible that A LOT of oil was poured into the spark plug ports in order to preserve the motor for long term storage and it leaked through an open valve into the carb?

L.A.B. wrote:

Cookie wrote:On those allens I like to start them with my cut down allen wrench and then use a ball end allen or if I don't have that a flat bladed screw driver that just fits it.

I ground a ball end onto my special carb Allen key, so that I can spin the screws most of the way in or out with the ball end!

That's an excellent idea LAB - if it wasn't for the snowdrift outside I'd be in the garage right now grinding the ball-end onto my cut-down Allen key.
I discovered a while ago that the French refer to this type of tool as an 'English Key'. Good to know that even the best inventions can be improved upon

I just cleaned up my carbs and got them fitted - the only change I made was to replace the nylon float needles with Viton-tipped brass. I've never has a carb leak on me with these needles fitted.
Sorry the photo doesn't show them up well - they're in the plastic bag underneath the old ones
I've done away with the air valves and blanked off the screw holes in the carb tops. I've never needed to use them on any bike yet, but there's always a first time....



Installed - mostly. Note the unbridgeable gap between the carbs and the filter housing; I need to get the airbox top angle-bracket installed in front of the frame gusset to reduce the gap...

RennieK wrote:

Gary wrote:
2.) when removing the air pilot and throttle stop screws, OIL fell out. Yep, they were well coated... saturated, even, with what looked, felt, and then tasted like oil. Having only READ about a wet sump, I'm only GUESSING... but how'n hell could oil get into the carbs?! Both these screws plugged with oil... maybe that might be a SMALL reason as to why the bike might not start?
TIA, Gary

Is it possible that A LOT of oil was poured into the spark plug ports in order to preserve the motor for long term storage and it leaked through an open valve into the carb?

Only if the engine was on it's side.

Wow, you guys are great! Truly wonderful! Seriously, great read for a newbie, BLESS your hearts for the tips, and I shall be mulling/reading it all over a few more times. Multiple comments to you guys all wrapped up in one: first of all, hey, I can't be TO BAD if the very first tool I pick up (allen key) I realize (and ask) that I might have to cut it down, eh? (yep, amazing how little it takes to make me feel good...)

L.A.B.: You're awesome, bet you're a distant cousin, lol's! You know the old saying about the USA and the UK being 2 nations divided by 1 language? Well, I bit my tongue 'till it bled, what with me wanting to CRACK A JOKE about the UK not speaking proper english... but then realized sooner or later, one of my distant cousins your side of the pond wouldn't realize I was being 'facetious' (sp?), and might attack, thinking I was poking fun. Not. Truly, the links you supplied are labelled DIFFERENT from my literature, honest! Same diagrams and exploded views... but mine say 'Jack' about the term 'slide', lol's. Thanks again.

Dave: while my Dad's carb's were gunked up, they were still incredibly cleaner than I expected them to be. I've heard now that they might have less than a 100 miles on them as they were shipped someplece in California for clean/rebuild prior to being parked years ago. certainly looks good, only in need now of replacement gaskets after the cleaning.

Cookie: No. Good thought, and it had crossed my mind, also, hence the taste test. Clean looking oil, still 'honey' colored. No clue where it came from, certainly not resin. I *know* what the resinated crap looks like, having become quite the expert. Carbs were BONE DRY, except that large dollop of oil on the tip of each screw.

RIP: no, no oil poured down there.

SWOOSH: you mean that I was NOT supposed to store the bike from the rafters, suspended by it's wheels? (i.e. "engine on it's side" comment)

LAB: don't understand the effect your ground key edge has (yet) but shall copy it.
~Gary

You can just buy ball end allens. They are sixteen bucks at Harbor Freight but thier have big handles. I bought mine at a tool shop locally.
The real problem is that you can not use the allen wrench straight since the carb body is in the way, ball ends let you slant the wrench.

I removed the short section of a 1/4" ball ended allen and use a 1/4 x 1/4 socket and ratchet .

Gary wrote:Truly, the links you supplied are labelled DIFFERENT from my literature, honest! Same diagrams and exploded views... but mine say 'Jack' about the term 'slide', lol's.

Don't worry, it shouldn't take you long too long to become fully bi-lingual as far as US/UK technical terms are concerned, as most of us here are already quite fluent in both! So you will soon become familiar with UK tech. terms such as spanner, mudguard, yoke, silencer, stanchion, petrol etc. as we in the UK are with wrench, fender, triple tree, muffler, fork tube, gas etc.!

Gary wrote:LAB: don't understand the effect your ground key edge has (yet) but shall copy it.

As Cookie said, the ball end allows the key to turn the screw even when it's held over at an angle of up to approx 25 degrees off the line of the screw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Allen ... _end_1.jpg which does make it much easier to screw in/out the two inner manifold flange to head cap screws because the carbs with their manifolds need bolting together first, and then each assembly is fitted to the head, which is awkward enough, but attempting to fit the carbs to the manifolds after the manifolds have been fixed to the head is practically impossible.

I do own ball ended key sets, but I ground the ball on the long end of my shortened key, so that it became two tools in one.

I think I understand the talk about the ball end keys. Must admit I've never used them. Kick myself, because I went and bought a cheaper... ah... being possibly international here (ahem!) perhaps I'd better say I purchased a few keys at Harbor Freight to cut down. Kick myself, because could have just gotten the ball ones, eh? Oh, well, whatever, live and learn.

By the way, JimC... nice trick if I understood you. Simply cut off (enough of) the end of the key which you then put a socket over, hey?

I uploaded several pics to photobucket. Want to show anyone who'se never seen it what the USA fuel is doing to the interior of the fiberglass tanks, 'least, down here in the carb's and manifolds. Not sure if you'll get to see it all very well... pics might get cropped as I've not yet taken time to figure that sizing thing out. Anyway, first symptoms of failed sealer was the reluctance of the bike to start, due to contaminated PETROL anyone doesn't understand this, I shall describe in detail should you wish. The heavier than fuel resin sits at bottom of tank, ergo, first to be sucked into the carb. It burns as an... well, almost as an plastic. You end up cleaning the entire electrode of the plugs literally every couple of miles, as in 2, 3 or 5 miles, NOT 20, 30 or 50 miles. A real PITA (french term, that

Anyhow, joke aside, the residue leaves what appears to be a very thin 'sheen' ('glimmer'?) of a plastic like 'smear' on the electrode, obviously SLOWLY choking the spark to death as the electrode becomes more and more covered with the crap.

So, I expected to find the entire bowl filled with a solid resin lump. I did not. However, I can find that plastic-like sheen in areas headed into the manifolds. Same as the earlier pic of that crap running out of the 'ticklers' (I love THAT one, LAB!) Anyway, below I'll slap a shot. Don't know if you guys can see it well enough, but when I zoom in, you can see the stuff flaked up, looking like old, fractured PLASTIC sheeting. Not looking so good, suppose I may as well try to clean as much of that stuff out as I can. Here's the pic:



Oh, I think anyone really curious could follow the thread to photobucket, where I believe you can zoom in on the pic to your heart's content. Anyone seen the plastic-like residue I mention? The black tar substance (resins?) in liquid state sitting on the bottom of the fuel tank?

BOGUS: are those SS Allen bolts I see attaching your manifolds to the head?